Sergeant William Sidney plant 217 squadron RAF

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by norton 407545, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Hi guys I'm looking for where I might be able to find information on my Great uncle William Sidney plant 620004, 217 squadron RAF He died on the 20th December 1940
    I don't know what happened obviously I guess he was shot down and killed on a bombing raid over France as I believe all the crew are buried in a collective grave plot in lanester france. I was wondering if anyone would know anything or could they point me to someone who might be able to fill in so many blanks.
    I don't know what type of plane he was in but I do know he was a wireless operator/Gunner. I was wondering if there would be records of possible targets he may have been doing sorties on or basically any information out there at all.
    It's 75 years this Sunday since he died and to my knowledge no one in my family has ever researched anything about him.

    Merry Ones

    Shaun
     
  2. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Hi Shaun,

    This might give you a starter in your research........

    http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=16056

    Crew re Beaufort I L4474 - 217 Squadron - Missing on raid to Lorient 20 December 1940

    P/O. N H. Webb DFM +
    Sgt. C M. Tiplady +
    Sgt. W S. Plant +
    Sgt. P. Milligan +
     
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  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

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  5. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

  6. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

  7. AlanW

    AlanW Senior Member

    IWM has this one of L4474. The wiki photo is not of this aircraft, but of N1173 "E" from a set of photo's of N1173 and AW242 taken in Jan 42 flying along the Cornish Coast.
     

    Attached Files:

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  8. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Sorry, Alan, but that photo is ALSO on the Wiki page, NOT that coloured one of MW@E but further down in the Section on Attacks on Capital ships
    ... you almost got me! :lol:
     
  9. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Thanks guys for the information there are some good leads for me to look into much appreciated
    Shaun
     
  10. AlanW

    AlanW Senior Member

    So it is ! but having a total dislike of wiki and the high proportion of misleading information it puts out, i did not dwell long enough to scroll down, i only saw the heading photo.
     
  11. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    I have had a chance to go through the links you gentlemen have provided me and its certainly filled in the blanks. I didnt expect to find a picture of his plane or his headstone thank you
     
  12. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    I have another question please gents,
    Would a bomber crew stick together most of the time? I have a copy of the ORB for December 1940. I can see the P/O Webb and Sgt Tiplady in plane "E" quite often which was my great uncles plane but I also noticed they are In plane "H" or plane "B" a few times would this still be the same crews?
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    I have attached the ORB for December if anyone is interested
    Regards Shaun
     
  14. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Its quite likely a crew would stay together, apart from illness, courses, posting to other units or time expired etc.

    They would not be allocated to a particular aircraft on a permanent basis, they could be allocated to any aircraft on charge with the Squadron.


    Just out of interest, looking at the increasing capability of Bomber Command re the raids on Lorient for 1940 as against 1943

    During 1940 Bomber Command raided Lorient on 18 occasions. 131 aircraft attacked the target (Naval) dropping 126 tons of bombs (HE and Incendiary)

    During 1943 (The most intensive year) Bomber Command raided Lorient on 15 occasions. 1827 aircraft attacked the target dropping 4447 tons of bombs (HE and Incendiary)
     
  15. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Thank you Peter clare that makes sense, I thought they would always use the same plane but of course the planes may break or need a rest as well. Very Interesting facts on the bombing raids. A few years of bombing does make you wonder how there was anything left to drop a bomb on really

    Regards Shaun
     
  16. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Interestingly,across all commands, the only types who flew in a regular aircraft tended to be squadron commanders who according to their particular personal fancy chose to claim a particular aircraft as their personal inventory.Guy Gibson records that while on No 106 Squadron at Syerston his personal aircraft was "stolen" by one of his flight commanders who later had flown the aircraft on an op at night with Gibson after declaring Gibson's aircraft u/s.

    For the other crews,such as newcomers,these usually flew whatever was left over and these may have been older and long service aircraft,some on the point of being handed over to the likes of OTUs and later HCUs.

    Looking at the crews who manned aircraft which ultimately featured as the ones attaining the leading number of ops.It appears that the majority of the crewing fell across four or five pilots with their crews, who varied for the reasons that Peter has outlined.I remember seeing this interesting fact revealed in the crewing of what I think was the operational record of the Phantom of the Ruhr

    As regards the raids on the Lorient U Boat base,little wonder that the city re emerged after the war as a "concrete city".the technique being the quickest to rebuild flattened urban areas.
     
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  17. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    My understanding is that many Bomber Command squadrons were formed into 3 Flights of 6 aircraft; each Flight might have aircraft that needed servicing or repair which may have prevented them being available for the next nights Operation, so where able, they often carried an additional one or two spare aircraft. The dispersal pens would be marked for each aircraft "A", "B" etc etc so that if XX@A were unavailable, a spare, repaired or newly delivered aircraft would be painted up as XX@A ready for the fray.

    Missing aircraft would simply have another aircraft moved to the dispersal pen coded as XX@A or whatever and a fresh crew allocated to it. Often they were the most worn out aircraft so the newcomers had the fates weighted against them in some respects. Sometimes a favoured aircraft would be returned from repairs so you could see XX@A and XX@A2 denoting a duplicated letter (often referred to as "squared").

    Often "C" Flight would be used to form the basis of a new Squadron once sufficient spare aircraft were available, usually operating out of the same base, at least to begin with.

    Having cured everyone's insomnia, Merry Christmas!
     
  18. Little Friend

    Little Friend Senior Member

    I have often thought that it was unfair to give a new inexperienced crew a well-worn (Out) aircraft for their first mission (s) Fully understand though that it was not a good idea to chance a brand new aircraft with a 'Sprog Crew'. But surely the chances of an experienced crew having in-flight problems with an ''oldie'' were more favourable than a new crew. Hopefully that way all would then return to terra-firma safely.
     
  19. John(txic)

    John(txic) Junior Member

    Roy Conyers Nesbit wrote a couple of books about 217: might be a good idea to get hold of them in case your relative is mentioned.
     
  20. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Prewar and early war Bomber Command squadrons composed of 2 Flights usually of 8 aircraft.However as the RAF expanded rapidly with the entry of the 4 engined heavies and manufacturing output of Lancasters increased,new squadrons became composed of 3 Flights of 8 aircraft with the squadron carrying spare aircraft from 2 up to 6,making 30 aircraft,sometimes more.

    As late as March 1943,No 617 squadron was formed with two Flights but for the ad hoc raid,Gibson organised his squadron into three groups according to their target with Young,the A Flight Commander, as his Deputy and Maudsley,the B Flight Commander with Gibson were in the first group.

    The new 3 Flight squadrons were always formed with an experienced Flight forming the nucleus of the new squadron and in some cases shared the same airfield such as No 57 Squadron which shared East Kirkby with their creation,No 630 Squadron.

    Aircraft losses from a variety of reasons from total loss,ie FTR or damaged beyond repair and written off, were replaced with aircraft ,ex aircraft manufacturing contractor after going through ancillary equipment fitting at an MU.These aircraft would be identified with the squadron code and individual code letter.Sometimes an aircraft carrying a given individual code may have been lost a number of times resulting in replacements,either sourced as newly manufactured or from damaged aircraft that had been incapable of being repaired on the unit.This latter practice is evident in records for some individual aircraft which were found to have to have been issued to a number of different squadrons and can be traced by their individual RAF aircraft serial number.
    After damage some aircraft were deemed to be unrepairable and written off as operational aircraft but were retained at technical schools as instructional airframes or as fire practice aircraft.

    Overall,while under repair,aircraft tended to be regarded as pooled aircraft for they were reissued,after repair to any squadron who had a shortfall in strength...at no time were damaged aircraft returned to their former squadron when repaired,as a Air Ministry principle.Postwar the pooled aircraft concept was used with aircraft reissued to squadrons as their aircraft were subject to the deeper maintenance procedures off the squadron.
     
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