Service Records - REME & Italian Campaign - Help

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by bowtiebuster, Jan 24, 2024.

  1. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Hello All,

    Apologies in advance, this will be a pretty full post (with images). Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to look and try to help me.

    I have been digging deeply into my Grandfathers military history in the British Army during WWII. I have received his Service Records from the National Archives, his B.102, B.103-1, B.103-2, B199A and his B200D. Unfortunately, despite my many hours of searching through forums in an effort to spare the need to post for help, I am at a loss trying to confirm what I understand through notes, letters and his personal items.

    I understand he was in REME, trained as an Instrument Mechanic and was posted to Italy (C.M.F.) late '44, going ashore in Naples. I believe he was part of 6th Armoured Division and have the Division patches along with a photo of him riding a Division motorcycle to confirm this but I cannot find when or where he was part of the Division in the records. There is some redacted information while in Italy. I know he was captured by Italians and tortured, yet managed to escape using a screwdriver given to him by an Italian priest the night before he and his cell mates were set to be turned over to the Germans. Late in '45 he was posted to 161 Inf. (R.M.C.) O.C.T.U at Sandhurst and was appointed a commission with the Royal Sussex and sent back to Italy as part of the M.M.I.A, being M.T.O in charge of transport for the mission.

    He was a Craftsman with REME can anyone tell me more information on his skill/trade as Inst Mech? I see he was upgraded, sub-divided and reclassed on separate occasions but do know know what the text means: ( I/M A III ) ( I/M/FD III ), ( I/M/FD II )?

    Hopefully someone will recognize some of the abbreviations (or even be able to read the handwriting by recognizing codes etc.) and can shed some light on this for me. If you see anything you recognize, please let me know!

    Attached are images of his records. I have removed his DOB, Army & Personal Number along with home Address (White blanks), the black blanks are officially redacted information under Section 40(2) and Section 41(1)(a) and (b).

    Thank you for any light you can shine on this!

    B102a.jpg b102b.jpg B103_1.jpg B103_1b.jpg B103_2.jpg B199a.jpg B199b.jpg B200_3.jpg B200_4.jpg Italy_6th_armouredx.jpg
     
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  2. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    The bulk of your posting I will leave to others as my typing is very slow and these are often answered before I can post.

    I can however clear up his Trade description as I qualified in my apprenticeship as Instrument Mechanic way back in 1969.

    During the period before and after WW2 most measurements were displayed by mechanical instruments rather than electronics.
    The trade was particularly prevalent in RAF Aircrews as the Flight Engineer would have to pass the trade test before flying in Heavy Bombers to measure the height, speed and flight level instruments as they were paramount for the pilot to be confident that they were reading correctly. (My Trainer flew as Flight Engineer in Halifax Bombers).
    The REME did similar jobs measuring volts amps and ohms, Speed and height in such things as aircraft flight prediction to control the Ant Aircraft guns etc.
    As the war progressed these became more complex and necessary.
    Instrument Mechanics began to widen their knowledge as technology advanced studying electrics and electronics plus radio transmission /reception for radar etc..
    The Royal Artillery spent much time developing Counter Battery and Counter Mortar fire measurement to locate where it was coming from
    6th Armoured were in Italy, a country with many hills and valleys the location of enemy guns behind the hills was important. He might have not been part of them but attached.
    Naples was a centre for many Head Quarters due o its coastal location.

    I will look through the documents to see what he might have been doing ( bearing in mind much of this was secret) and if others don't turn up to transcribe the forms will begin to offer my suggestions bit by bit.

    The forum has many skills and associated knowledge so dont become alarmed if other jump in, we tend to work as a team on things like this. I will step aside if I see fit to do so or just plod along.

    All Service Records feature the same codes and acronyms one being the X List
    The ‘X List’ was used to identify a soldier and his status in the system for accounting and pay purposes. All time was accounted for particularly if the soldier was unavailable for duty, necessitating a stoppage of pay.
    Changes of trades/Qualification could also affect pay.

    The ‘X’ was followed by a Roman numeral,

    X(i) for all ranks waiting for a posting to a unit.

    X(ii) for all ranks held on medical grounds, wounded, injured or on a sick list.

    X(iii) was for prisoners of war, deserters, and soldiers held further to disciplinary action.

    X(iv) soldiers waiting to be posted to a unit from reserve holding / training camp.
    X(v) soldiers attending training/courses.

    Whilst not exactly correct, some records are written with arabic numerals X1, X2 etc.

    common acronyms
    SOS = Struck of Strength
    TOS = Taken on Strength

    ITC = Infantry Training Centre
    CMF = Central Mediterranean Force (Italy and surrounding countries)

    1TTC- 1 Technical Training Centre
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2024
  3. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Uncle Target, your reply and information is very much appreciated. Rest assured, I won't be alarmed if others jump in as I have been a forum member for years and appreciate the wealth of knowledge here. Any and all help is appreciated. Also, I have located a copy of Craftsmen of the Army (Vol. 1), which I hope to receive soon so I can further explore what REME was all about during (and after) the war.
     
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  4. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    In which case its time for a glass of port
    I'll drop by later to check if you need any help.
     
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  5. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Thank you for the added info in your response! Enjoy the glass, I'll be joining you with a g&t in roughly 5 hours (Canada).
     
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  6. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Looking to have another pair (or pairs) of eyes try to discern what is written on these three snips. Text in red I can't figure out.

    Q1.jpg
    "Placed in sub-division as Inst/Tech
    (??) ??? Act II and Reclassified Wf(?)"

    Q2.jpg
    "Posted to 13th A.A. w/s Coy R.E.M.E.
    Authy - ?? R.E.M.E. Records Posting Instructions
    Sital(?) to 806 Sub. ?? (12) ??. 28/June44
    ----
    "SOS Ghoo(?) Unit and posted to
    Mab Centre REME for Draft RDKGA
    Authy Remecords(?) P.I. 105819 Date 5.9.44"

    Q3.jpg
    "Joined No. 17 I.T.C. for duty
    Det(?) C Motex(?) UK Posted to ??????? to head office
    Posted to 1 R Sussex
    P/A to HQ MMIA x(I)"
     
  7. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    A few slight guesses,

    "Placed in sub-division as Inst/Tech
    (Field) Group A class II and Reclassified with effect from

    "Posted to 13th A.A. w/s Coy R.E.M.E.
    Authoriy -General i/c (in command) R.E.M.E. Records Posting Instructions
    Sital(?) to 806 Sub. ?? (12) ??. 28/June44

    "Struck off Strength this unit and posted to
    Mobile Centre REME for Draft RDKGA (Random Embarkation Draft Code)
    Authority Reme records( Part.I. 105819 Date 5.9.44"

    Detached Chorley UK Posted to ??????? ?????

    Last line is illegible to me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2024
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  8. Redd

    Redd Senior Member

    Det(ached) CMF ex UK posted to X4a - (not sure about this next part - perhaps: Ent(rained) to Head Office?)
     
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  9. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Thank you RosyRedd and UncleTarget for your go at the scribbles for me.
    I have searched for clarification as to what the 13th A.A. would be but am still unsure (as I am not terribly familiar with Military structure). Does A.A. signify Anti-Aircraft? I have seen L.A.A. (Light Anti-Air) and H.A.A (Heavy Anti-Air) but not finding A.A. as often and don't want to assume it is a mix of both Light and Heavy using the simple A.A... And 13th being the "13th Group"?

    Also, I have been reading in several books the "Royal Engineers" being referenced (in Italy). Would this be a short form for REME or are the Royal Engineers a completely different group?

    Apologize for what may seem like silly questions to some.

    Thank you again.
     
  10. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Last edited: Jan 30, 2024
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  11. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Hello again. I am revisiting this with a fresh set of eyes. Wondering if anyone might have any idea what my grandfather might have been doing behind the redactions in his records? I see he was placed on the XII list and assume this was after he was captured then managed to escape and find his way back to friendly lines (between Feb 17th and March 3rd 1945), after which he was kept at 16 Base Workshop before being sent back to the UK to OCTU. It is a little frustrating that this information is redacted and that his being in REME, doesn't show details on where he was exactly at what date, leaving so much room for speculation. Can anyone see anything in the provided records which hasn't yet been mentioned by Uncle Target? Thanks in advance, Bowtiebuster
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2025
  12. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Whilst I share your frustration, sorry cant do much more from the Service Report.

    However there are a couple of sources that I have found since your original postings.

    I bought a book on Kindle (also available in hard copy).

    20250122_112618.jpg

    Unfortunately the book doesn't reveal much regarding Italy but might give an idea of how radar or other technology was used to locate enemy Artillery.
    It lists a number of members of various locator units, even Other Ranks.

    REME must have been involved in maintenance and repair, possibly attached to RA units where they would be integrated and indistinguishable from the Gunners, they could be found in the War Diary Appendix but not by name.

    A large part of the book covers location of V1 and V2 sites which possibly might explain the redactions in the records.
    The technology used might still be secret or relatively recently removed from the Official Secrets Act.
    TNA are extra cautious at the moment.

    You could write to request release of allowable information. (assuming that you were sent them by TNA, as you live in Canada.

    I have also caught site of a War Diary where a description of a Counter Mortar site was installed in Italy.

    Counter Mortar Officer 1st Div. report Mt Calderaro
    Learning Action by us : To find a suitable Advance Post for 4 or 5 men by 28 December for gathering information.

    Room in church as base, with listening post outside in the rubble. 2 hours work to complete.

    The room is in San Martino Church on Mt Calderaro overlooking Bologna December 1944.
    They would be using it to locate enemy heavy mortars firing on the church being used as an Artillery Observation Post.
    Using sound and vibration on a pen recording chart (Seismograph).

    Seismometer - Wikipedia

    Hope this goes some way to explain the redaction but purely guesswork, based on sparse knowledge of a little known largely secret organisation.

    Hopefully others might join in now, we have several members who would have knowledge of modern RA procedures for target acquisition.

    Links
    Radar Units - The Royal Artillery 1939-45
    Survey Regiments - The Royal Artillery 1939-45
    (Organisation)
    Survey Regiments - The Royal Artillery 1939-45
    Guns & Equipment - The Royal Artillery 1939-45
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2025
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  13. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Uncle Target, thank you again for your response and additional info. I worry about spending researching a specific path without knowing that's what he was up to, leaving mounting frustration due to the redactions as I am fairly certain that behind them would pinpoint where he was.

    With that in mind, if I were to visit the TNA in person, would I be able to see his records, and if so, would I be able to see them without redactions?

    Further to that, it seems that the corresponding "No. of Part II" records of the redacted info, being "X364/44" and "X122/45" are listed. Would viewing those in person give me more clues as to what went on, or is my search for answers relatively futile?

    Despite my research and many, MANY hours spent, it seems I really can't go any further on my own.

    At this point, I believe I have his location down to a general area, between February 17th and March 3rd 1945, being close to the front lines around the Gothic Line, as this is the location he most likely would have been captured (I was told by family that he was indeed captured and managed to escape back to allied lines) on the redacted records which lead to him being put on the XII list for 9 days and subsequently posted back to 16 Base Workshop in Naples for another 115 days. Am I nuts for considering this possible?

    [​IMG]

    Uncle Target, as it turns out, Monte Calderaro is right along the lines I mentioned above. Very interesting. I will look into getting that book.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2025
  14. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Regarding te maps posted #13
    Could you please post the sources of your information, it would not be available from the Service Record.

    This would help myself and other members to validate them, particularly the POW/Internment camps.

    There are a few very experienced members who specialise in POW Camps in Italy.

    Regarding Mt Calderaro
    This was the furthest point that the Allies Advance until the Spring Offensive into the PO Valley.
    It was captured by American 88th Div, who were relieved by British 1st Div and held by them until Jan1945
    When they were relieved by US 85th Div (American 5th Army) and British 78th (Battle Axe) Div. part of British XIII Corps. Jan to March 45

    .https://www.youtube.com/live/rBsR4XHhZh0?si=ckLHAhTt3hE6Afjv
    You will see that this video is a part of a series narrated by Eddy O'Sullivan.
    I've not watched the one that follows as my specific interest is British 1st Infantry Div who went to Palestine in Jan 1945.

    Your comment regarding a book
    There is no book, the record of the notes are from a file in TNA Kew.
    Unfortunately I don't have the file number for reference.


    This post should generate interest of other members as it widens the narrative.
    Maps and photos are always of interest.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2025
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  15. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

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  16. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    There doesn't seem to be anyone listed as missing with that name and REME on the British Casualty lists.

    What is his army number and date of birth? It would assist people in helping you research.

    Also, I fear the parts redacted by TNA may hold some clues to his units
     
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  17. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Thanks all for the responses. I will try to answer questions in sequence starting with Uncle Targets response:

    The first image map comes from a website I discovered ( Project '44 ), which has the front lines marked out date by date and the respective units in the area. Someone really did their homework to consolidate such a large amount of information, and I have used this map to create a snapshot of time (between February 17th, '45 and March 3rd, '45) to show where the lines were during what I assume is the window of time that he was captured/wounded/escaped, though I may be wrong and perhaps his capture may have taken place between Oct 8th and Oct 29th instead, however without requiring hospitalization (no XII list mention as all info is redacted). The time I am focusing on is the redacted line on his Service and Casualty Form (B.103-2, reattached) shows a date of 3.3.45, which I assume is when he was placed ON the XII list, as the following entry was 12.3.45 and mentioned his removal from the XII list and placed in onto the X(4) list. Again, this is speculation and an educated guess, but it would be the only window of time that he was at the active front lines (from what I can see in his records). The second image is an overlay of the first, onto Google Earth, where I have been compiling many locations of interest, some of which are pinned in yellow, being POW camp locations and prisons in the area. This is most likely useless, as I highly doubt that he was sent to any of them, however I wanted to plot them out, especially the locations at Castel San Pietro to see if it would be a realistic distance for him to travel back to allied lines (around 12-13 kilometers). Again, this is really just a guess, as I have zero information of his capture outside of family stories. He didn't talk about it, but apparently he had a very bad time while he was captured. He did mention in an unpublished book he wrote (about the Malayan Emergency) that he "was posted to Italy with the Eighth Army, going ashore at Naples. Serving at different times with Gurkhas, Sikhs, Aussies, South Africans and even Americans". This was prior to his time at Sandhurst.

    As for the camp locations, I have been using a website ( I CAMPI FASCISTI - Dalle guerre in Africa alla Repubblica di Salò ), searching in tandem with google earth, google maps and verifying using whatever maps can be found using these sources.

    Richard Lewis - thank you for finding that!

    Gary Tankard - I wonder if his capture, possibly being short and sweet, would have anything to do with their record keeping. Say he was missing for 2 days, would it be mentioned in his record or would they have said "bugger it" and not add him to the xiii list? Record keeping seems to vary immensely between person to person, some records showing dates of receiving service medals etc., whereas my grandfathers records show none of this while being full of redactions.
    Army Number: 14672777
    DOB: April 17th, 1925

    [​IMG]

    Also, out of curiosity, perhaps this letter might help experts. Was this sort of thing typical to receive?
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2025
  18. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    I think the picture of him on the motorbike is probably post-war. I don't think he'd be dressed that way in Italy in October and 1st Sussex joined 6th Armoured Division in July 1945.
     
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  19. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

  20. bowtiebuster

    bowtiebuster Member

    Yes, you're right. It's from 1946, just outside of Trieste, when he was part of the M.T.O.
     

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