Track & other field-modded armour, concrete etc.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by canuck, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    The Firefly crews must have felt particularly vulnerable. Canadian examples below.
    Enough applique track to stretch from Juno to Berlin. Even modelers get into the act.
    Interestingly, I have yet to see the Recce units apply the same treatment to armoured cars. they must have valued speed more highly than protection.

    firefly1.jpg firefly2.jpg firefly3.jpg firefly4.jpg firefly5.jpg firefly6.jpg firefly7.jpg firefly.jpg BC dragoons.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
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  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Psychological protection perhaps as useful as real protection in arenas where encounter ranges often meant HV guns would cut through whatever you felt like bolting on.

    Watched a veteran interviewed recently, maybe The Tank Museum, maybe Norfolk, where he slightly criticised the amount of sandbags on a surviving example because sandbags were hard to find but track links were very very easily obtained, so many crews just thought 'why not'.
    (Passing interesting, as I've often read that sandbags may indeed have been one thing that would help a little against shaped charges.)

    Now digging for a report that came up on here or 2F years ago that discussed the way extemporised stand-off armours could actually improve penetration of shaped charge stuff if not very carefully worked out.
     
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  3. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    I love to see photos after the cessation of hostilities where the order has gone around to get the tanks back to the approved stowage layout - however they are still covered in tack weld marks. The Sherman preserved at the Oosterbeek museum has them too. E.g. (random internet find) https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/09/84/18/cd/airborne-museum-hartenstein.jpg

    Canuck - that photo with the 105mm Sherman is a rarity. Any more details please?
     
  4. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    There is one photo of an Achilles but I believe you may be confusing a 17 pdr. with a 105.
     
  5. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    The photo in 'Den Haag, Netherlands May 1945'. Sherman C with 17pdr next to a Sherman B with 105mm howitzer.

    Whilst the British & Commonwealth cruiser tank establishment had 'close support' tanks at Sqn. HQs most of the time they had the same 75mm weapon as the 'gun' tanks. Very few Sherman B's were actually issued and used - photos are exceptionally rare. I would like permission to share this please however will only do it with an appropriate credit or source.
     
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  6. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Sorry, I didn't go back far enough. All I can tell you is that they are from a Canadian armoured unit, likely from the 5th Cdn Arm Div. Go ahead, the source is obviously shown on the photo.
     
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  7. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    It is an 'Italian issued' M4 105.
     
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  8. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    There was one vehicle which did benefit from improvised armour and that was the Bren/universal Carrier. The armour protection only covered the sides. If the vehicle ran over a mine, the driver would lose his legs unless protected by a sandbag. Well that is what an Armoured OP driver told me.
     
  9. 8RB

    8RB Well-Known Member

    As I understood from an 8th Rifle Brigade carrier commander they pit their 2" mortar grenades under their seats. Not sure if it was due to the mine or the mortar ammo, but when running over a mine a friend of his lost both of his legs...
     
  10. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Makes sense. The 5th arrived in Belgium, from Italy, in January 1945. Apparently all Canadian Armoured Regiments in Italy each received six 105mm Sherman IBs in the fall of 1944.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  11. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Sherman 105mm of the Calgary Regiment (14th Armoured Regiment), 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade at Ede, Holland:

    026.JPG

    027.JPG

    029.JPG

    The tanks of the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade were in support of 1st Cdn Corps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  12. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians)), (5th Canadian Armoured Division), taking part in an inspection and marchpast, Eelde, Netherlands, 23 May 1945.

    5-CAD-tanks--Eelde--Netherlands--MIKAN-No--4166576.jpg
     
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  13. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I've not seen this method of 17pr camouflage before. It's a bit more involved than the usual bit of countershading.
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Finding myself more than a little distracted by field-applied concrete armour.

    A tad cautious about this MA thesis, but it makes at least one interesting claim.
    Concrete not doing much to stop breaches, but maybe decreasing lethality:

    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a451272.pdf
    ref for that is 41 - Ibid., Exhibit 2, p. 20
    Which I think refers to this old thing:

    Isacc D. White, “A Report on United States vs. German Armor” (Headquarters,2nd Armored Division, March 20, 1945)

    Anyone seen an online version of that? As I can find it as a published facsimile but it feels like something that I've read for free in it's original form somewhere, and I'm only currently looking at any possible concrete bit.
    (Suppose I should check my own heap of pdfs...)

    I'll keep poking about, but in the meantime, some concreted AFVs.

    Only pic I've yet seen of actual field application, complete with mixer.
    105mm
    sh.jpg

    Nice neat job:
    2763051b8ce31504c122446a1e927cc4.jpg concrete_armour_by_wolfenkrieger-d3gw3ho.jpg

    Fort Garry Horse blobs:
    DapndxWXUAEUMCm.jpg large.jpg


    Rather similar style:
    8809b0259327a1361af08efbb7cbff9e.jpg


    Concrete blocks? really not sure. Think it may just be a wooden box :
    ea2e6de05aee23e391c39428997ce868.jpg


    Stug life:
    (Factory jobby? Can't remember.)
    c38811601f165c26c569c70831701b2f.jpg


    Was gonna put that crazy T34 thing in, but it's all a bit irrelevant really.

    Mostly, I am currently interested in ballistics vs concrete/concrete+armour.
    (These have their own thread.)
     
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  15. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Hey VP

    We had a bit of a discussion on this in the "Sherman-Track Armour" a while ago.

    Sherman-Track Armour
     
  16. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I equivocated about adding to that thread, Dave.
    Began to think that concrete is so different it might deserve it's own place.
    Still not sure. Might just merge.
     
  17. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    I have just found a 2014 article from Military Modelling Magazine on Canadian Shermans by Steve Guthrie.; it includes the following: -

    "At this time [March 1945] all CAC units began welding spare track to their shermans as auxiliary armour. Some units .....had been using the tracks off knocked out German Tigers since the battles around Normandy. But now it was officially organized by the RCEME."

    He goes on to quote what I presume is an official document: -

    "HQ 5th Canadian Armoured Division
    21 March 1944
    Each Sherman in this division has been allotted a total of 120 track links to be used as auxiliary armour: 24 for the hull front, 31 for each side of the hull and 34 for the turret. Each tank has also been allotted 120 feet of Welding Rod No 6 to attach the tracks to the tank."

    Unfortunately there is no mention of the effectiveness of this measure and you will note that there is an apparent discrepancy in the article in that it mentions March 1944 and March 1945 but it seems to make it clear that "track armour" was an official measure in the Canadian Army.

    Noel
     
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  18. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    There is much in the way of anecdotal support for the use of the track armour but the path from that to becoming official divisional policy is hard to pick up.

    " …our vehicle mechanics … poor devils, not only were they keeping us going in the daytime, but at night they were out there … cutting up track and so on and [they] welded this on in a particular pattern. …sure I’ve been hit with the thing [a German round fired from a tank] and all my tracks flew in the air, but the bloody tank lived and that to us was the important thing."
    Radley-Walters
    Sherbrooke Fusiliers
     
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  19. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Governor General's Horse Guards Armoured Regiment during the Liberation of Arnhem 15th April 1945.


    cdn tank.jpg
     
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  20. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Bucking the popular trend, this firefly chose shrubbery over track armour.

    Note the interesting extensions on the tracks. Photo taken on the Bailey Bridge over the River Santerno, near Imola, 12 April 1945.



    firef.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
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