South Lancashire Regiment

I would very much appreciate if someone could help in answering the questions I have in relation to the South Lancs .

I have scoured the internet and found conflicting information in relation to the AOS stripes , one site ...D Day the 1st Btn SLANR were 8th Brigade and were Junior Infantry of Brigade, Suffolks were senior and the East Yorks Middle .If this is the case that would mean 3 red AOS stripes worn below the Div patch?

Problem is I have seen a genuine SLANR P40 BD with 1 AOS stripe which I understand is Senior Infantry of Brigade , so I'm a little confused

The other "problem " I have , is finding any info on is E.V Earle , I have in my possession his greatcoat made my Moss Bros , dated 23/07/1940 badged to a Col .
What I have found in relation to him is very little ,the following are snippits from info I have found .

I have a copy of the 142 Commando Company war diary - my interest is in Lt A V Earle, who was a South Lancs officer, a trainer at 142, and then a Chindit.

He is held in Rangoon Jail with other Longcloth soldiers in 1943, and is then taken away by the Kampei. he is a captain by then .

It looks like he was at 142 Commando Coy prior to calverts arrival, I'm wondering if he was one of the original staff drawn from Commando units from North Africa.

The greatcoat is in immaculate condition and looks like it has never been used ,its dated 23/07/1940 and badged to a Col ,ranks and dates don't seem to tally .

I'll apologise now for asking these probably mundane questions when there are far more interesting topics on the forum to get your teeth into .

Sorry I don't ask many or contribute to many questions on here (knowledge is limited), but do read alot of the info available .

Thanks

Dave

 

The Eighth brigade that landed first was made up of the South Lancs the East Yorks and the Suffolks,That was the assaulting brigade that had been prepared in Scotland over a considerable time for the invasion.

They landed on Sword beach queen red and queen white..I cannot be sure after all these years but presumably Queen red for the Lancs and Queen white for the Yorks.And Bloody fine mob they were.]
They should have had the single stripe beneath the regimental flashes fir Eighth Brigade for it was that brigade that led the whole shooting match onto Sword. My RE Company were in the same brigade. The South Lancs and the East Yorks were the first infantry ashore. They were a fine infantry regiment with a great reputation...Fine fellows that led the way. with the Yorks and Suffolks. They certainly were not the junior regiment.Though I have never heard that description before? Hope that helps?
Sapper
Eighth brigade.
Monties Ironsides.
Third British Infantry Division

 

Hello Dave,

I have had a quick search of the LG for Lt. Earle, but have not been able to find anything as of yet. Do you have his Given Name or Number? Either of these would assist in tracking him down.

WRT insignia, you are correct that a Junior Bde would indeed wear 3 AoS strips. However, the 1st South Lancs were in the 8th Inf Bde, which, as Brian says, was the Senior Bde in 3 Div;

3rd London Infantry Division, British Army, 06.06.44

D-Day : Normandy 1944 - SWORD BEACH : British Troops

Therefore they would have worn the single AoS strip of the Senior Bde.

A brief search of the IWM archives turned up this photograph of the South Lancs on 13th June;


THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944. © IWM (B 5547)IWM Non Commercial Licence

This confirms that the South Lancs did wear the single AoS strip as per the 40 Patt' BD blouse. However, bear in mind that one needs to study many photographs to get a proper idea of the insignia worn by a particular outfit.

The wearing of insignia (by Overlord and beyond, at least) rarely conforms exactly to regulations, so one needs to have enough material to deduce overall practices, making allowances for individual preferences etcetera which may give a false impression of the overall practices of the unit. This said, 3 Div are known to have adhered to insignia regs more closely than most Divs, which is a great help.

Will add any further information as and when I find it.

Regards,
Five-Five

 

The Eighth brigade that landed first was made up of the South Lancs the East Yorks and the Suffolks,That was the assaulting brigade that had been prepared in Scotland over a considerable time for the invasion.

They landed on Sword beach queen red and queen white..I cannot be sure after all these years but presumably Queen red for the Lancs and Queen white for the Yorks.And Bloody fine mob they were.]
They should have had the single stripe beneath the regimental flashes fir Eighth Brigade for it was that brigade that led the whole shooting match onto Sword. My RE Company were in the same brigade. The South Lancs and the East Yorks were the first infantry ashore. They were a fine infantry regiment with a great reputation...Fine fellows that led the way. with the Yorks and Suffolks. They certainly were not the junior regiment.Though I have never heard that description before? Hope that helps?
Sapper
Eighth brigade.
Monties Ironsides.
Third British Infantry Division

Hello Sapper
My Dad landed with the 1st Btn The South Lancs on Sword Queen White, Chateau's La Londe & Le Londel , Venray, Overloon and into Germay , thinking about it you probably fought alongside each other .

I go back each anniversary with my two lads and lay a wreath's to the SLANR at the beach memorial and at Hermanville .

The info relating to the seniority of the Btn's I found on a Military Vehicle site . It listed the following .......... the colour of the vehicle identification plates were Red for the three assault Btn's with the following numbers denoting the Rgt ...... 55 Suffolks (Senior).......East Yorks (Middle)........SLANR (Junior) , now I have doubt's over this )

Dave

 

Hello Dave,

I have had a quick search of the LG for Lt. Earle, but have not been able to find anything as of yet. Do you have his Given Name or Number? Either of these would assist in tracking him down.

WRT insignia, you are correct that a Junior Bde would indeed wear 3 AoS strips. However, the 1st South Lancs were in the 8th Inf Bde, which, as Brian says, was the Senior Bde in 3 Div;

3rd London Infantry Division, British Army, 06.06.44

D-Day : Normandy 1944 - SWORD BEACH : British Troops

Therefore they would have worn the single AoS strip of the Senior Bde.

A brief search of the IWM archives turned up this photograph of the South Lancs on 13th June;


THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944. © IWM (B 5547)IWM Non Commercial Licence

This confirms that the South Lancs did wear the single AoS strip as per the 40 Patt' BD blouse. However, bear in mind that one needs to study many photographs to get a proper idea of the insignia worn by a particular outfit.

The wearing of insignia (by Overlord and beyond, at least) rarely conforms exactly to regulations, so one needs to have enough material to deduce overall practices, making allowances for individual preferences etcetera which may give a false impression of the overall practices of the unit. This said, 3 Div are known to have adhered to insignia regs more closely than most Divs, which is a great help.

Will add any further information as and when I find it.

Regards,
Five-Five

Hi
Thanks for that . Unfortunately I don't have any personnel info on him . With my Dad being ex SLANR, I have a great interest in the regiment and tend to collect items associated to the regiment.

When I found the greatcoat I thought it would be good to have the history of
the officer concerned .When I found the info above it threw things ,ie with him being a Lt promoted to Captain and the coat being to Col around the same .I thought this was very odd and needed more investigation, but unfortunately I have not been able to find anything

Thanks for the info on the AOS which is very helpful

Thanks again

Dave

 

Great picture there, Five-five, with many interesting points.

1. Note the Sherman in the background, no doubt from 27th Armd Bde. In 8th Armd Bde (which I studied) some tankies complained about having to harbor or remain in position close to the front to help the infantry, but with German counterattacks a continual danger there was not much choice.

2. I see that the men are wearing cap comforters, and their BD blouses are well buttoned-up. The Normandy weather that June was mostly chilly and wet.

3. I would give anything to hear their comments about that MP40, especially vis-a-vis the Sten. I imagine that trophy was put to use for the good guys.

 

Hi Dave,

I do not have any more information for you other than what you know already about Captain Earle, but I do have his Japanese Index card for his time as POW. See attached.

He was heavily involved with training for Operation Longcloth and as you say taken away from Rangoon by the Japanese Kempai-tai, probably to their Singapore HQ.

I have not had this particular card translated for my research. An interesting character from Chindit 1.

Steve

 

Another staged photo.There were a great many of these taken. Look at the man on the left, is he being taught how to use a Sten. STAGED...
I note they are not in battle gear. No helmets. Staging photos was done on a large scale for the press at home. Yes I took part in all the battles you named, and never liked one of them My war ended at Overloon and Venraij just after we took it....I must be getting old. Certainly they would have worn the one stripe for the leading brigade

 

Dave

I did a little research on Earle a couple of years back, mainly because he was a South Lancs officer with 142.

There is a photo of him on the thread on the Commando Veterans Assoc. website.

Will have a look in the history, see if it mentions a location for the 14th June.

Earles greatcoat.......sounds like a formal piece of kit if its in that good condition. He certainly wasnt wearing it much in the early 40s........possibly issued prior to his going to India, sat in a wardrobe for the duration, then updated with pips after he returned?

Regards

Pete

 

Another staged photo.There were a great many of these taken. Look at the man on the left, is he being taught how to use a Sten. STAGED...


Thats a German MP40 Brian, It's not a Sten Gun

 

I would very much appreciate if someone could help in answering the questions I have in relation to the South Lancs .

I have scoured the internet and found conflicting information in relation to the AOS stripes , one site ...D Day the 1st Btn SLANR were 8th Brigade and were Junior Infantry of Brigade, Suffolks were senior and the East Yorks Middle .If this is the case that would mean 3 red AOS stripes worn below the Div patch?

Problem is I have seen a genuine SLANR P40 BD with 1 AOS stripe which I understand is Senior Infantry of Brigade , so I'm a little confused


You are getting a touch confused with your battalions and brigades there. There technically was no official seniority of battalions, just brigades. This means that ALL of the men within 8th Brigade wore a single Scarlet (not red) AoS strip.

8th was senior, so 1 Scarlet AoS strip.
9th was intermediate, so 2 Scarlet AoS strips.
185th was junior, so 3 Scarlet AoS strips.

It can be a bit of a minefield so I hope this helps.

 

Thanks Tom. I'd totally missed that, hence going straight to Bdes rather than clearing up the Bn/Bde confusion. Apologies Dave!

Dave, WRT the vehicle AoS markings, your gen is correct but incomplete - here is a full list of markings for the Inf Bdes in an Inf Div;

Senior Inf Brigade - (all on Red square);
- Bde HQ & Ground Defence Platoon: White 81
- Senior Inf Bn: White 55
- Intermediate Inf Bn: White 56
- Junior Inf Bn: White 57

Intermediate Inf Brigade - (all on Green square);
- Bde HQ & Ground Defence Platoon: White 87
- Senior Inf Bn: White 60
- Intermediate Inf Bn: White 61
- Junior Inf Bn: White 62

Junior Inf Brigade - (all on Brown square);
- Bde HQ & Ground Defence Platoon: White 94
- Senior Inf Bn: White 67
- Intermediate Inf Bn: White 68
- Junior Inf Bn: White 69

There are many similar markings for the other units in an Inf Div*, a list of which I will post up if it would be useful to you (or anyone else).

I believe, though I stand corrected if somebody knows otherwise, that Battalion seniority was worked out from the seniority of the parent Regiment. As Tom explains above, this only has bearing on the vehicle insignia though, not on the men's insignia.

There is, of course, the isolated practice of one of the Bdes of 53rd Welsh Div, but I shall not go into detail to avoid creating confusion.

Best Regards,
Five-Five

*= Note; Armd Divs used the same system, but with different numbers.

 

Another staged photo.There were a great many of these taken. Look at the man on the left, is he being taught how to use a Sten. STAGED...
I note they are not in battle gear. No helmets. Staging photos was done on a large scale for the press at home. Yes I took part in all the battles you named, and never liked one of them My war ended at Overloon and Venraij just after we took it....I must be getting old. Certainly they would have worn the one stripe for the leading brigade

If I'm not mistaken is that the handle of a fairbairn sykes showing with your BD , were you issued with these ?

 

Hi Dave,

I do not have any more information for you other than what you know already about Captain Earle, but I do have his Japanese Index card for his time as POW. See attached.

He was heavily involved with training for Operation Longcloth and as you say taken away from Rangoon by the Japanese Kempai-tai, probably to their Singapore HQ.

I have not had this particular card translated for my research. An interesting character from Chindit 1.

Steve
Thanks Steve
Excellent , its a starting point if I can get bits of info like this and build up the picture that would be great , its nice to have a piece of history , but to have the story behind it is even better

 

Thanks Steve
Excellent , its a starting point if I can get bits of info like this and build up the picture that would be great , its nice to have a piece of history , but to have the story behind it is even better

No probs, I'll have a dig around to see if I have anything else. I have not revisited Earle's information since Peter (Peter Keane) and I swapped info back in 2009.

 

Hi again, Dave

Just looked again at the LG using the names shown on the POW questionaire posted by Steve - here are the results (if the link to the search results works....);

Search Results

All the best,
Five-Five

 

That photo was taken on the 13th, at that time the Battalion was in positions around the Chateau de la Londe.

 

Dave

I did a little research on Earle a couple of years back, mainly because he was a South Lancs officer with 142.

There is a photo of him on the thread on the Commando Veterans Assoc. website.

Will have a look in the history, see if it mentions a location for the 14th June.

Earles greatcoat.......sounds like a formal piece of kit if its in that good condition. He certainly wasnt wearing it much in the early 40s........possibly issued prior to his going to India, sat in a wardrobe for the duration, then updated with pips after he returned?

Regards

Pete

Hi Pete
I'll have a look at the photo as I don't even know what he looked like , thanks very much .

The greatcoat as you say is probably the reason its in immaculate condtion

Dave

 

That photo was taken on the 13th, at that time the Battalion was in positions around the Chateau de la Londe.

 

You are getting a touch confused with your battalions and brigades there. There technically was no official seniority of battalions, just brigades. This means that ALL of the men within 8th Brigade wore a single Scarlet (not red) AoS strip.

8th was senior, so 1 Scarlet AoS strip.
9th was intermediate, so 2 Scarlet AoS strips.
185th was junior, so 3 Scarlet AoS strips.

It can be a bit of a minefield so I hope this helps.

Helped alot the way it was set out on the MV site I found was as follows:

the colour of the vehicle identification plates were Red for the three assault Btn's with the following numbers denoting the Rgt ...... 55 Suffolks (Senior).......East Yorks (Middle)........SLANR (Junior)

The correct number in fact should read 55 which related to all 3 Btn's , but on the site it was worded exactly as " 1st South Lancs Junior infantry battalion of brigade" and gave the number 57 as their recognition .

Thanks for making things clearer , I might pay this website a visit and put my ten penneth in ,suggest they visit websites of this standard and ask for information before they put it live

Dave