Souvenirs (memories) of WWII - incl. Lancaster shot down, 1943

Discussion in 'User Introductions' started by Gabriel, May 23, 2011.

  1. eddie chandler

    eddie chandler Senior Member

    For all those detectives on this site, the task is to see if you can identify the plane that was shot down ie number of plane and crew members.

    It would be interesting to see how much of the story of the aircraft and it final flight that could be put together.

    Fingers crossed that some info can be found.
     
  2. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    For all those detectives on this site, the task is to see if you can identify the plane that was shot down ie number of plane and crew members.

    It would be interesting to see how much of the story of the aircraft and it final flight that could be put together.

    Fingers crossed that some info can be found.


    And... I found it! ;)

    See Balfour, R.D.
    THE DOVER WAR MEMORIAL PROJECT - World War Two - Service Casualties in the Book of Remembrance - Surnames B

    But something doesn't match. The crew's list shows 7 members or they should be 8. If they were 7, why 9 graves?
    We know that a body* that washed ashore near Biarritz, was buried with those of the Lancaster that crashed near our house.


    *
    Name: BROWN, RICHARD
    Initials: R
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant (Flt. Engr.)
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 207 Sqdn.
    Age: 25
    Date of Death: 02/03/1943
    Service No: 944643
    Additional information: Son of James Edward and Edith Esther Brown, of Thornhill, Dewsbury, Yorkshire.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Div. 9. Grave 6731B.
    Cemetery: BIARRITZ (DU SABAOU) COMMUNAL CEMETERY
     
  3. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    Thanks to the one (a moderator I suppose) who erased my "doublon". :)
     
  4. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    Years ago, I wrote my souvenirs of the War and Occupation for the benefit of my children en grandchildren.
    Of course I din't remember the exact date of some of the events that occurred, but now thanks to the Web, these "blanks" can be filled.

    I will be happy to share some of these souvenirs with you: some amusing, some not so amusing and some not amusing at all.

    Gabriel
     
  5. sanglier

    sanglier Junior Member

    Gabriel

    From CWGC
    So in that cemetery you have 7 from the aircraft you saw plus Richard Brown from 207 sq. Lancaster I ED533 EM-N lost over the sea, all except Brown no known graves, whose body was washed ashore 27th May 43. (From Chorley)
    The aircraft you saw was 101 sq. Lancaster III ED728 SR-Y

    1. BALFOUR, RAYMONDE DEREK, R D Sergeant ( Bomb Aimer ) 1396828 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 28/04/1943 19 Div. 9. Coll. grave 6730.

    2. CLEGG, HERBERT, H Sergeant ( Flt. Engr. ) 947632 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 28/04/1943 Unknown Div. 9. Coll. grave 6730.

    3. DIXON, RICHARD NORMAN, R N Sergeant 1046330 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 28/04/1943 29 Div. 9. Coll. grave 6730.

    4. MARGERUM, CHARLES ALFRED, C A Sergeant ( Pilot ) 1335003 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 28/04/1943 2

    5. PARK, DONALD JASPER, D J Sergeant ( W.Op./Air Gnr. ) 1294117 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 28/04/1943 22 Div. 9. Coll. grave 6730.

    6. STOTTER, JOSEPH WILLIAM, J W Sergeant 1302662 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 28/04/1943 33 Div. 9. Coll. grave 6730.

    7.VELDSMAN, JOHANNES JACOBUS, J J Sergeant 710084 Royal Air Force 28/04/1943 Unknown Div. 9. Coll. grave 6730. From Bulawayo, Southern Rhodesia.

    8.BROWN, RICHARD, R Sergeant ( Flt. Engr. ) 944643 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 02/03/1943 25 Div. 9. Grave 6731B.

    Ah Biarritz have you ever walked the Comete Escape Line route from St Jean de Luz in September?

    Cheers
    John
     
  6. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    Gabriel

    From CWGC
    So in that cemetery you have 7 from the aircraft you saw plus Richard Brown from 207 sq. Lancaster I ED533 EM-N lost over the sea, all except Brown no known graves, whose body was washed ashore 27th May 43. (From Chorley)
    The aircraft you saw was 101 sq. Lancaster III ED728 SR-Y

    But there are 9 graves! :confused:


    Ah Biarritz have you ever walked the Comete Escape Line route from St Jean de Luz in September?

    Cheers
    John

    I was born in Biarritz, but in 1938 we moved to St-jean-de-Luz at Erromardie.
    I never walked the Comet Escape Line, but I know very well about it.
    My father was part of it, contributing to the passage in Spain of many peoples (airmen,escaped POWs,dissidents,jews,etc...).
    My dad was arrested in severals occasions, but was lucky enough to pass only for a smuggler (witch he was) and be sentenced for fews weeks of jail.
    But is luck run out in mai 1944 when he was arrested on the spanish side of the border by the Carabineros and delivered to the french's gestapo who suspected him since long time and gave him the "treatment". The funny thing is that he was later released by the germans!
    But ma father, a strong character, was then a broken man. These french's a..holes, they beated him like pulp and crushed his fingers. But he never told them what they wanted know.

    It was in 1955 -10 years after the end of the war- that my father learned that he was a little link of the "Comet Escape Line".
     
  7. sanglier

    sanglier Junior Member

    But there are 9 graves! :confused:




    I was born in Biarritz, but in 1938 we moved to St-jean-de-Luz at Erromardie.
    I never walked the Comet Escape Line, but I know very well about it.
    My father was part of it, contributing to the passage in Spain of many peoples (airmen,escaped POWs,dissidents,jews,etc...).
    My dad was arrested in severals occasions, but was lucky enough to pass only for a smuggler (witch he was) and be sentenced for fews weeks of jail.
    But is luck run out in mai 1944 when he was arrested on the spanish side of the border by the Carabineros and delivered to the french's gestapo who suspected him since long time and gave him the "treatment". The funny thing is that he was later released by the germans!
    But ma father, a strong character, was then a broken man. These french's a..holes, they beated him like pulp and crushed his fingers. But he never told them what they wanted know.

    It was in 1955 -10 years after the end of the war- that my father learned that he was a little link of the "Comet Escape Line".

    Gabriel
    On CWGC it says there are 9 graves but only 8 have information. I assume the ninth grave is an unknown person.

    I'd be interested to know your father's name.

    John
     
  8. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    Gabriel
    On CWGC it says there are 9 graves but only 8 have information. I assume the ninth grave is an unknown person.
    You're probably right. It's strange, the first time I saw the graves, I tough they were 8, because I assumed they were 8 crew members.

    I'd be interested to know your father's name.

    John

    My father died in 1982 and you won't find his name nowhere because he never received a medal or any recognition and never asked for it, unlike many frenchmen who did nothing and after the war played heros.
    My dad wasn't a Patriot in the poetic sense of the term, neither a Resistant, he never was a member of any group (like my uncle and godfather, who was a communist, fought in Spain in the International Brigades and later joined the FTP).
    My dad did what he did, because de circumstances called for it, and he was a good man.
     
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  9. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    My father died in 1982 and you won't find his name nowhere because he never received a medal or any recognition and never asked for it, unlike many frenchmen who did nothing and after the war played heros.
    My dad did what he did, because de circumstances called for it, and he was a good man.

    A good man who did the right thing! As nice an epitaph as any one of us could hope for.

    Well said Gabriel.
     
  10. eddie chandler

    eddie chandler Senior Member

    How do you know it was Lancaster III ED728 SR-Y that was the wreckage
     
  11. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Thanks to the one (a moderator I suppose) who erased my "doublon". :)

    Gabriel,

    I did that ;)
    Also edited the title slightly - might grab the attention of some RAF types. Hope it's correct, if not please feel free to change it to something better.
    Regards
    Diane
     
  12. sanglier

    sanglier Junior Member

    How do you know it was Lancaster III ED728 SR-Y that was the wreckage
    Because Gabriel gave the date of the crash and I looked it up in Chorley.

    John (also in Sidcup )
     
  13. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    Gabriel,

    I did that ;)
    Also edited the title slightly - might grab the attention of some RAF types. Hope it's correct, if not please feel free to change it to something better.
    Regards
    Diane

    It's just fine Diane and I appreciate it.
    Thank you.

    Gabriel
     
  14. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    The way I witnessed the crash of the doomed Lancaster.

    Translation (good enough,I hope) from my "memories":

    - One night we were sleeping profundly when we were awakened by a tremendous noise coming from outside. It seemed as if all the guns on earth were barking! A striking thought crossed my mind: "Dieppe! They are landing like they had at Dieppe!" * Claude and I rushed toward the kitchen and we find Dad standind outside, holding Moyo by his collar.
    The night was illuminated. The first thing we saw was the rays of the searchlights stretching to the sky where they joined, forming a large zone of light. In the middle of that zone of light a plane was trapped like a fly in a spider web. Dad said:
    "It's a Lancaster, he's in trouble!"
    The FLAK batteries fired whitout interruption. We could see the tracers piercing the darkness and converging on their prey who seemed motionless in the halo of light.
    The tracers were of diffents colors,red,green,white,orange.

    It was a spectacle that was altogether tragic and fairy like. We were all fascinated.
    The plane seemed helpless and couldn't escape the network of light that held him prisonner. He turned left, losing altitude and passed vertical from us at about 1500m and still veering the plane executed a full circle with the tacers of de AAA chasing him. Suddenly we saw the bomber vacillate, swinging to the left and plunging toward the ground. He disappeared behind the pine wood, betwen our house and the beach and immediately we heard a violent explosion, vivid flames burst above the screen of trees and died away leaving only a gleam of red light.
    The silence that followed seemed more unbearable to us than the uproar that had preceded it. After a while we returned to our beds and it was a long time before we could get back to sleep. I was conscious that I had witnessed a great tragedy and a feeling of great saddness envelopped me and suddenly I felt cold.
    When I awoke the following morning, the events of the night came back to me and for a brief moment I thought it had been a dream, then the reality of it became clear. -

    * Few months before, all the schoolboys were "invited" by the Propagandastaffel to watch a film taken by the germans during and after the Raid on Dieppe.
     
  15. sanglier

    sanglier Junior Member

    Gabriel
    In the book RAF Bomber Command Losses it says.
    Took off from Holme-on-Spalding Moor (that's South East of York in England) for operations in the Elderberry region (the area around Bayonne) . Presumed crashed in the target area. All are buried in Biarritz (du Sabrou) Communal cemetery, alongside a 202 squadron airman who died in circumstances quite similar in March 1943.
    It was a mining operation.
    John
     
  16. sanglier

    sanglier Junior Member

    Gabriel
    And in the book , The Bomber Command War Diaries it says:-
    27/28 April 1943
    MINELAYING
    160 aircraft - 58 Halifaxes, 46 Lancasters, 31 Wellingtons, 25 Stirlings - in the biggest minelaying operation so far mounted. 123 aircraft carried out their flights successfully, laying 458 mines off the Biscay and Brittany ports and in the Frisian Islands. 1 Lancaster lost.

    John
     
  17. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    Gabriel
    In the book RAF Bomber Command Losses it says.
    Took off from Holme-on-Spalding Moor (that's South East of York in England) for operations in the Elderberry region (the area around Bayonne) . Presumed crashed in the target area. All are buried in Biarritz (du Sabrou) Communal cemetery, alongside a 202 squadron airman who died in circumstances quite similar in March 1943.
    It was a mining operation.
    John

    Erromadie's beach, were the Lancaster was shot down, is situated about 15kms south of the intended target.
    According to the fate of Balfour R.D, they were 160 aircrafts involved.
    Balfour's plane probably drifted from the formation.
    Whatever happened, the plane crashed at Erromardie and not near Bayonne.
    I know, I was there!

    Gabriel
     
  18. sanglier

    sanglier Junior Member

    Erromadie's beach, were the Lancaster was shot down, is situated about 15kms south of the intended target.
    According to the fate of Balfour R.D, they were 160 aircrafts involved.
    Balfour's plane probably drifted from the formation.
    Whatever happened, the plane crashed at Erromardie and not near Bayonne.
    I know, I was there!

    Gabriel

    Well of course Gabriel you are the eye witness, maybe the only one left.
    Though where an aircraft is shot at and hit and where it crashes can be two very different places.
    John
     
  19. Gabriel

    Gabriel Junior Member

    Well of course Gabriel you are the eye witness, maybe the only one left.
    Though where an aircraft is shot at and hit and where it crashes can be two very different places.
    John

    I'm not the only witness left, my brother still alive. ;)

    Now, we saw the plane been shot at and hit above Erromardie and crash by the beach of Erromardie.
    I discribe it quite well in "The way I witnessed the crash of the doomed Lancaster".

    Also, it was the only plane lost of that mission.
     
  20. sanglier

    sanglier Junior Member

    Gabriel
    You seem to think I'm doubting what you say.
    The solution is of course that the aircraft was on a mission to the "Elderberry" region for a mining operation and the "Elderberry" region based around Bayonne, would have included Erromardie beach and probably a large proportion of that SW France coast.
    John
     
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