Spitfires on the Eastern Front?

What kind of issues Are you saying that he was a nut of some kind?

Not necessarily, but let's say that per what I read from him elsewhere he and I don't share the same views.

 

No, Ground crew were not allowed to instruct the Soviets as far as I can remember on any Lend-Lease equipment.

Not according to a little book in my possession. 'RAF in Russia' by Hubert Griffith, pub. Hammond & Hammond 1942. It tells the story of No. 151 Wing, R.A.F. in north Russia 1941-42.
To summarize the intended and achieved activities of the Wing. then :- the Wing was formed in England in the last days of July, 1941, to go out to Russia for two purposes. First-and the most important-was to teach our new Allies how to fly, erect, and maintain Hurricane aircraft. England was in process of sending out some hundreds of Hurricanes as one of our early instalments of aid, and it was obvious that these would have been useless as a contribution unless they could be taken over on arrival by a large body of trained Russian personnel-trained not only to fly them (a matter of only a few days instruction to crack pilots), but trained, as groundstaffs, to un-crate them, assemble them, take them to pieces again as the necessity arose, and in general, to "service" and overhaul them and all their wireless and technical equipment, with expert and practised skill.





More here
RAF Hurricanes in Russia

 

I knew it! Cheers Bodston!

 

There was a proposed operation (Buckshot) to send fighter Sqns to Caucasia in 1942. It was also suggested an Infantry Brigade would be needed to guard the R.A.F. Installations.
This is in a letter from the Air Ministry to Tedder after drastic Convoy losses in mid 1942.

 

Stitfires in Russia lol. No offense ADM, Stitfires just sounds funny for some reason :p

Wow, planes are one thing, but actual squadrons? First time I've heard that. Normandie-Niemen may be one thing, but this looks like a whole another story. But they weren't actually deployed, I must imagine. Or were they?

 

I can't say now, but there was an operational RAF Squadrom in the Murmansk area sometime in 1941. I'll try and dig up some details but I'm sure the resident experts know all about this already.

 

I can't say now, but there was an operational RAF Squadrom in the Murmansk area sometime in 1941. I'll try and dig up some details but I'm sure the resident experts know all about this already.

There was the 151 Wing RAF in Murmansk area.

No. 151 Wing RAF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The remit of 151 Wing was to provide both training and operational support to the Soviets. The Hawker Hurricane was not the most modern aircraft by late 1941, having been designed in the 1930s with priority given to ease of maintenance and operation in arduous field conditions, but it proved well suited to conditions around Murmansk. Furthermore, the British, Australian and New Zealand ground crew and aircrew were mostly veterans of the Battle of France and Battle of Britain. They were highly experienced. They brought with them a modern radio and radar air control system.

During the following month, the Royal Air Force provided air cover to Soviet troops trying to hold off enemy forces from Murmansk and the Murmansk railway. In particular they provided fighter escorts to Soviet bomber aircraft operating along the front. The RAF pilots carried out their final operational flight on 8 October 1941. At that point, they started handing their aircraft and equipment over to the Soviet Air Force, which was completed by 22 October and returned to Britain by 7 December.

The main objectives of the 1941 expedition to Murmansk were to show the quality of the Hurricane aircraft if properly handled and to train Soviet pilots and their ground crews how to handle the British military equipment that would be supplied to the Soviet Union. The operation was judged to have fulfilled these objectives successfully.

On 5 July 1942, 153 Wing was raised in England with the intention of resuming RAF operations on the front. This was a force of four squadrons of Spitfires and two squadrons of ground-attack Hurricanes. This would have involved around 2,000 British and Empire personnel. However, most likely due to increased convoy casualties, the operation was called off and 153 Wing was stood down.


There is also a book about them:

Hurricanes Over Murmansk (Airlife's Classics): Amazon.co.uk: John Golley: Books

 

Stitfires in Russia lol. No offense ADM, Stitfires just sounds funny for some reason :p

Wow, planes are one thing, but actual squadrons? First time I've heard that. Normandie-Niemen may be one thing, but this looks like a whole another story. But they weren't actually deployed, I must imagine. Or were they?

Good job the Typo was a T and not H. My stomach is rolling at the thought.

There appears to be eight Files on Operation Buckshot, the last one dated October 1942 so perhaps it fell through.

 

A year later 153 Wing was formed on the 5th July 1942 at Debden with G/Cpt Ramsbottom Isherwood AFC DFC, W/Cdr Rook DFC, W/Cdr Miller DFC, S/Leader Jackson - Medical Officer, for a return visit with a larger force. This force was code named 'Invective' and would have meant sending four squadrons of Spitfires from the Debden Wing and two Squadrons of Hurricanes. The 2000 personnel and 96 aircraft would have had to go by ship to Murmansk.
This was unfortunately cancelled on the 20th July 1942 most probably due to the increasing convoy casualties. It was not worth the possible loss of the whole wing. Lend lease aircraft were expendable, not 2000 RAF pilots, ground crew, and other personnel.

From here:
RAF Hurricanes in Russia

 

These consisted mainly of Hurricanes, but also Tomahawk IIB's and P39 Airacobra. (Later the Russians were to receive over 1000 Spitfires but did not actually like them in the end).

Hurricanes were to be the largest aircraft consignment of aircraft from the UK, put at around 3,000 Hurricanes of different marks. At this point, it was noted that there was no point sending hundreds of aircraft, Hurricanes especially, without showing the Russians how to unpack, assemble, operate and maintain Hurricanes with their relatively sensitive Rolls-Royce Merlin engines.

What the!? We didn't like Spitfires? I thought that everybody who saw it fell in love with it first off Turns out the Soviets didn't like the design as much as I do. Sigh.. oh well.

And in the second excerpt it clearly states that an instruction was to take place - so no Cold War hate in the mix just yet.

 

The main objectives of the 1941 expedition to Murmansk were to show the quality of the Hurricane aircraft if properly handled and to train Soviet pilots and their ground crews how to handle the British military equipment that would be supplied to the Soviet Union. The operation was judged to have fulfilled these objectives successfully.

Case and point.

So then, the 1941 Murmansk operation was carried out successfully, and the Soviet pilots were now trained and ready to handle imported British equipment. From then on only aircraft were sent down to Murmansk and Arkhangel', not fighter squadrons.

Oh no, hold on a minute.

British Empire forces remained active in the Murmansk area from 1942 until 1944, but this activity was mainly maritime patrol and escort duty in support of the Arctic convoys. At various stages, RAF, RAAF and RCAF units operated Catalina, Hampden, Hudson and PhotoSpitfire aircraft out of Vaenga and Lakhta.

On 2 September 1942, 455 RAAF squadron and 144 RAF squadron flew about 32 Hampden bombers from Britain to Murmansk and 9 of these were lost, mainly due to harsh Arctic weather, compass failures and enemy anti-aircraft fire.

The Hampdens operated from Vaenga air base and were used for convoy protection and were eventually given to the Soviet air force.

Escort duties and protection of the port.. damn. But that's supply line protection, that's explainable, what about actual battlefield action (I don't know, like Normandie-Niemen at Kursk or something)?

 

What the!? We didn't like Spitfires? I thought that everybody who saw it fell in love with it first off Turns out the Soviets didn't like the design as much as I do. Sigh.. oh well.

Cut out the crapsky, they didn't like the Stitfires because they were too fragile for the Soviet conditions, in particular the narrow landing gear was too sensitive for the rough fields available.

 

Cut out the crapsky, they didn't like the Stitfires because they were too fragile for the Soviet conditions, in particular the narrow landing gear was too sensitive for the rough fields available.

Erm... I knew that We loved the Hurricanes though, and the Airacobra. They were more tolerant of ze Russian conditions, apparently.

 

I see this type of thing was discussed before - http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/others/20727-raf-eastern-front.html My apologies for bringing up another similar thread.

 

Bring up a digital one next time

 

Oh, ha-ha. :p

 

The planes were shipped via the Norwegian Sea, am I correct? Or perhaps via the Baltic.. but that would've been too dangerous, I expect.

I believe many were sent through the White Sea to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk. That is one of the main reasons why the Germans launched Operation Silver Fox, an attempt to capture the city of Murmansk, thus helping to reduce the amount of Allied aid coming in to Russia.

 

Re posts 22 and 29.

My brother, an electrician in the Fleet Air Arm, sailed on arctic convoys from 1943 onwards, in escort carriers; He said they shipped Spitfires to Murmansk and spent time with Russian technicians, showing them the routine of maintenance, etc. His usual speciality was working on Wildcats and Avengers, but they worked on the Spitfires during the voyage and also, I believe, had a few RAF people on board.

Edna