St Nazaire - Futile Heroism?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Bart150, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Sounds to me like a way of saving face in view of a lot of screwups... Too bad it was based upon sacrificing a lot of men and a priceless monument of civilization.
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Warlord -
    I suppose after 64 years it's easy to see many of the "screw ups" in the Italain campaign but the biggest to my mind was the total lack of a plan of any sort - whereas San Nazaire was very good plan -

    one of the early screw ups was Clark's pulling the French back from near Altina to reinforce the failng 34th Division - had he reinforced the success of the French, then the tale might have been much different with thousands of casualties saved.

    regarding the loss of the priceless monument - true many mosaics and frescoes could not be saved but - it appears that the Abbey is better than it was ...
    have a look at this account ...
    '
    BBC - WW2 People's War - The Abbey at Montecassino
     
  3. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Well, so it seems, although at the time, it meant the victory of evil over good.

    Now, going back to Chariot: What was it that went so wrong? Was it too tight a plan, or were there execution flaws?
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Warlord -
    Probably too far to go under enemy guns - can't really depend on all the sentries being asleep - there is alway one smarty pants !
     
  5. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    But, wasn´t there going to be an air raid to cover the approach of the convoy? Bad timing?
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Apologies if someone has already mentioned it (I confess to only reading around half the thread).

    I watched a programme about this yesterday called Great Raids of WW2 and there was a planned air raid just prior to the attack but unfortunately this did more damage by way of alerting the Germans.

    As for the Normandie Dry Dock I would suggest that it wasn't a futile mission since there was clear evidence in the way of aerial recce photographs showing the Germans attempting to repair the dock for some time after it was destroyed to no avail.

    I suspect even if they never had any intention of using it I bet they wanted it there for a just in case moment. After all the Bismark was heading there when she was damaged so whats to say that if the Tirpitz went into the Atlantic she wouldn't need it at some point.

    Around 400 Germans were killed and it was 1947 before the dock could be used again.

    I found some great pictures on bundesarchiv. If anyone knows the names of the POW's feel free to PM me with the rank and name and I'll add them to the post.

    POW's

    1.
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    2.
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    3.
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    4.
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    5.
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    6.
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    7.
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    8.
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    With hindsight it appears to me to be quite obvious why they all have smiles on their faces - I wonder if the Germans were curious as to why they appeared to be so happy?

    9.
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    James S likes this.
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The Wounded

    10.
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    14.
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  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    :poppy: The Ultimate Sacrifice :poppy:

    15.
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  9. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    The poor lad in the kilt later died from his wounds , good photos Andy - good propaganda at the time for the Germans but today a priceless record of the men who didn't make it home.
    Was the raid worth it - like the Dams raid , was it worth it ?
    Ron made the point that hindsight and looking back works against us - you can only view the raid within the context of the time and a war , the out come of which was far from certain.
    It was certainly something the Kriegsmarine never saw coming, it must have left them feeling very insecure inspite of all the concrete poured around the docks.

    BBC made an excellent documentery about the rais which I wish they would show again - I have it on VHS and really should take a look at it again - the men who took part at that time in their 60's , so many of them now gone.
     
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Well found that man.
    Some excellent photos there.
    Rather long hair some of them?
    That's an excellent shot of the chap in the kilt, is he the chap being discussed on the 'kilts' thread?
    Wondering if that's Forbes tartan?
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    HMS Campbeltown

    18.
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    One of the MTB's used in the raid. Perhaps the one that fired the delayed torpedoes that exploded two days later.

    19.
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    Gerard likes this.
  12. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    Well found that man.
    Some excellent photos there.
    Rather long hair some of them?
    That's an excellent shot of the chap in the kilt, is he the chap being discussed on the 'kilts' thread?
    Wondering if that's Forbes tartan?

    without looking into it, Im guessing the Kings, liverpool Scottish.

    Kev
     
  13. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    without looking into it, Im guessing the Kings, liverpool Scottish.



    Kev


    edit: Thinking about tih,s i think this picture is in the Liverpool Scottisch reg musumn, This man died a few mins later.
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    He can be seen in pic's 10 and 12 too.
     
    kfz likes this.
  15. Mullet94

    Mullet94 Senior Member

    Those fellas standing on the HMS Campbelltown got a nasty shock! Is there any pictures of the aftermath when the charges went off? I can only ever remember seeing the RAF reconnaissance shots.
     
  16. MBrockway

    MBrockway Junior Member

    without looking into it, Im guessing the Kings, liverpool Scottish.

    Kev
    Folks,
    The wounded man in the kilt is Tom McCormack, 5 Troop, No 2 Commando and 1st (Liverpool Scottish) Btn, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. (The Liverpool Scottish were no longer affiliated to the King's Liverpool Regiment by this time)

    He died of his wounds on 11th April 1942, nearly a fortnight later.

    He was billeted at my grandfather's house with two other commandos from 5 Troop who survived St Nazaire but were captured.

    If you search my other posts, you will see a picture of Tom's grave marker.

    He is indeed the man referred to in the thread about going to battle in the kilt.

    I myself have chosen not to post pictures of these wounded men, many of whom have close relatives still alive. Tom McCormack was an important person in my mother's childhood and I think she would prefer to remember him as he was before the Raid.

    Please bear in mind that these brave men are not merely faces to be identified and named, but are the loved ones of living people.

    Almost all of the men, whether hale and hearty, wounded or dead, in these Nazi pictures are identified and known within the Commando Veteran community.

    I would ask that we consider removing the pictures of the dead soldiers. I know these pictures are in the public domain, and I am certainly against censorship, but I think there is no need to publish them needlessly when the men's children could come across them.

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  17. DaveW53

    DaveW53 Member

    Well said Mark. Images of war dead is a sensitive subject and you have posted a reminder to us all to show consideration and responsibility.
     
  18. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    Folks,
    The wounded man in the kilt is Tom McCormack, 5 Troop, No 2 Commando and 1st (Liverpool Scottish) Btn, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. (The Liverpool Scottish were no longer affiliated to the King's Liverpool Regiment by this time)

    He died of his wounds on 11th April 1942, nearly a fortnight later.

    He was billeted at my grandfather's house with two other commandos from 5 Troop who survived St Nazaire but were captured.

    If you search my other posts, you will see a picture of Tom's grave marker.

    He is indeed the man referred to in the thread about going to battle in the kilt.

    I myself have chosen not to post pictures of these wounded men, many of whom have close relatives still alive. Tom McCormack was an important person in my mother's childhood and I think she would prefer to remember him as he was before the Raid.

    Please bear in mind that these brave men are not merely faces to be identified and named, but are the loved ones of living people.

    Almost all of the men, whether hale and hearty, wounded or dead, in these Nazi pictures are identified and known within the Commando Veteran community.

    I would ask that we consider removing the pictures of the dead soldiers. I know these pictures are in the public domain, and I am certainly against censorship, but I think there is no need to publish them needlessly when the men's children could come across them.

    Cheers,
    Mark

    Mark,
    No disrespect was meant, as a Scouser, where I have commonly heard the Liverpool Scottish refered to as the Kings Regiment, I felt ok to use that colloquesilsim.

    I must ask why you want to remove the picture? Hopefully the man died for a reason, unless it causes someone offence (the family maybe) we should keep the picture there. As said I saw plenty of pictures from St Nazaire at the regimental musumn whats the difference?

    BTW Im not being confrontantional, just surprised at your response.

    best regrds
    Kev
     
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  19. MBrockway

    MBrockway Junior Member

    Mark,
    No disrespect was meant, as a Scouser, where I have commonly heard the Liverpool Scottish refered to as the Kings Regiment, I felt ok to use that colloquesilsim.

    None taken! I was simply correcting the error :)

    Some of you will know me as an active member of the Great War Forum and have just done work there on the affiliations of the territorial regiments in London including the London Scottish and the London Irish. The Liverpool Scottish came up as part of that work and we pinned down that they switched from the King's Liverpools to the QOCH between the wars. I was not aware of this when I began trying to trace Tom McCormack some ten years ago, and I lost a lot of time trying to research him via the King's Liverpools records!

    I must ask why you want to remove the picture? Hopefully the man died for a reason, unless it causes someone offence (the family maybe) we should keep the picture there. As said I saw plenty of pictures from St Nazaire at the regimental musumn whats the difference?

    BTW Im not being confrontantional, just surprised at your response.

    best regrds
    Kev
    Kev - I didn't read you as being confrontational and I hope the Forum here doesn't think that of me either :rolleyes:

    It's just that I am in contact now via the Commando Veterans Association with the sons, daughters, brothers, sisters and wives of commandos. Even some of the commandos themselves. It has made me very aware of the emotional impact on others of things that are posted on the web and that these are not simply just interesting pictures.

    Tom McCormack was a wonderful man and remains a powerful memory to my mother from her childhood. After much deliberation I decided to show her the picture of Tom wounded. It upset her greatly, but she is glad I showed it to her.

    If Tom had been killed on the night of the Raid, rather than died in hospital a fortnight later, would you show her a picture of him lying fallen? I don't think I would.

    Also imagine your father was one of the fallen men in the Nazi pictures, how would you feel if you Googled 'St Nazaire' and an image of his body came up unexpectedly?

    The difference in seeing the same picture at the Liverpool Scottish Museum is that you're expecting upsetting images there - you're not taken by surprise while sitting in comfort in your home.

    Personally I usually refer to such images as being available rather than posting them, then if a relative wishes to see them, they can PM me to find out where, or Google it themselves - but pre-warned that the images are upsetting. That is what I did for these very same photos here on this Forum in my other post about Tom's grave marker.

    This is a delicate area and there's no right answer to these Qs. I leave it up to the original posters as to whether they remove the images of the fallen or not, and I certainly will not judge them if they choose to leave them. It's just not what I would do myself.

    In other ways I agree with you too - these men definitely did die for a reason and seeing their fallen bodies reminds of that.

    As has been said, a difficult area.

    :poppy: :poppy: :poppy:

    Cheers,
    Mark

    PS
    In the aftermath of the St Nazaire Raid, the Nazi newspapers carried a very humiliating photograph of Tom wounded after the Raid with what he had underneath his kilt exposed. The nastier side of the Nazi propaganda machine :mad:

    Please if anyone does have that photo, could you please please not post it? I would be mortified since I am responsible for bringing Tom's identity to your attention.

    The one that is posted higher up of Tom being loaded onto the flatbed truck, mortally wounded and in terrible pain, but still trying to pull down the hem of his kilt, is bad enough :mellow:
     
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  20. At Home Dad (Returning)

    At Home Dad (Returning) Well-Known Member

    Picture #5 - the days of going into combat with your socks tucked in your trousers while casually wearing plimpsoles!

    picture #12 is quite poignant. Isn't that the French word for 'butchers shop' in the background.

    This bundesarkive is proving to be incredibly rewarding with images!!

    Well done andy for the digging on this and other threads!
     
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