Stalag 4b: POW South African Rugby Team

Thanks for all the looking up, TD.

We've looked again at my end ( two pairs of glasses ) and come up with more variations.

"Ball" or "Hall" has an "all" as a surname ending but very hard to decipher the beginning of the surname and separate from the initials.

" Nathan J---ez" could be Nat Ramllez: the Nat crashes into the surname. The R could be a K.

G.J. Caulsee is fairly clear as that name.

B. Youngleer also fairly clear.

J. M. Ockley could be J.M. Ochley

A.L. Horte could be A.W. Forte

E.A. Chapman could be E.D. or C.D. There's a smudge.

A.J. Fabricius. It is a stylish F: a long line with a crossing stroke. If that was a mistake then it would be Labricius, but I doubt it.

 

Hi TD Try Youngleson. I checked in our phone book and there is a name Youngleson
Diane

 

Youngleson does fit.

"Breakfast" and "Olla" may well be a description of the time and the place and possibly written in the same hand as A.J.Fabricius.

 

Youngleson works

Also just found Fabricus

So thats 2 more sorted

TD

 

Re Ball/Hall etc - some options

D H Blackall
Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 53274 2184 4B


A Marshall
Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 6517 4B


A S Povall
Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 116952 223918 4B

J V Rall
Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany S.A.P.195924 222876 4B



TD

 

J V Rall looks like it could fit. There is a good beginning stroke for the J but the V gets lost. The R could have an oval in the middle: appropriate for rugby.

The next signature below is Nat something, Kanllez ? Of the letters a K followed by A looks possible. Then something indistinct and a double L. A bloated W is possible. Ending ey, ez.

G J Caulsee has a blot in the middle so the L could be a T with a low cross stroke: Cautsee ? Rather remote possibility.

Good for you about Fabricus. Sorry I added an "i".

John

 

I think Oakley is in fact J McG Oehley 12162 22416 4b

 

John

Perhaps - G J Coetsee Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 198248 224944 4B

DianeE - correct

So now we are left with:

Nathan ????llez?
A L Horte ?? (see post below - Foster)
E A Chapman (I think E S Chapman)
Olla
L G K L

TD

edited to add:
Bit in red above

 

Possible for A L Horte ?

A L Foster
Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 236424 261329 4B

TD

 

Oehley does work, hard to pronounce.

I like Foster ( no smudges ). Bit stylish at the end.

Coetsee sounds South African: smudge took away the cross stroke for the T.

The initial S in Chapman, smudged. It is like the lower case S I did when learning to write, with an end flourish. Chapman could not be anything else.

"Olla" is in inverted commas, as is "Breakfast", so could well not be a POW, and the initials need a new photo or close up.

Which leaves Nathan: usually get a Jones after that. I did wonder if the two loops looking like a butterfly sucking nectar could be a K and the surname was Key/Kez or could be a W for Wey/Wez.

 

Sorry guys my error here, just found that I forgot sheet 2

Odise - ?? no luck

Ackerman - done OK with that

A V Katzeff - have found a D Katzeff

"Breakfast" - no idea

E H Cowling - have found an E W H Cowling - looks OK

....bertson - only SA POW I can find in camp 4B is N H Robertson - so looks OK

TD

edited to add:

S Cochrane - could be A A Cochrane or G D Cochrane bot SA POW's in 4B

 

It looks like you're nearly there, TD. You've done a great deal of the jigsaw.

Odise could be Oclise, his first name begins with a Q for certain.

D for Dave Katzeff with a funny "D": the ink wasn't flowing from the Platignum pen when he signed it ( perhaps an Osmiroid, surely not a Parker ? )

Cowling good.

I think A Cochrane.

Robertson does seem to be the full name, the beginning off the photo.

It is down to Nathan and Quentin.

Diane will wake up with the sun tomorrow and look them up in the Cape Town phone book.

 

Godd morning, the sun is shining and the phone book has come up trumps. Hope you agree

J Q Ochse Maj. 188446 249174 OS4B

Nathan or Nat being more troublesome.Will keep on trying

Diane

 

Good Morning Diane from grey skies and drizzle in Essex.

Overcast and raining hard earlier, about 6 degrees outside.

Ochse obvious really, aren't they always when you have outside help ? Signature has got a long middle H. Congratulations.

Nat Ramiley ? Don't think he's a Matt.

John

 

Just Googled the name and found J K (Chum) Ochise who was a Springbok rugby player in the early 50"s. He was born in 1925 and I think its a good bet that he was a relative.

 

Searching for all $B POW's with an initial N that might fit the bill:

N E Shamley

N E A Rogers

TD

 

Shamley rather than Rogers, methinks, because I can't see the G for Rogers. Thanks for the clues.

 

There are very few SA newspaper archives on line. However I found that, according to the Eastern Province Herald dtd 1/8/45, the following POW"s were on their way home from "the north" to Port Elizabeth.


Amongst the names were C F Heydenreich, A R Hinds, J M Oehley, N H Robertson and I J Zietsman

 

The Australian digital newspaper online resource called "Trove" has a few photographs of Australian POW rugby teams. Some photographs taken by guards bribed to take them, according to the reports.

This is one newspaper report of a match at a different camp involving a South African team taken from a letter by a POW received in Australia in December 1944:

The Murrumbidgee Irrigator ( Leeton, NSW )

Tue 19 Dec 1944

PLAY HARD FOOTBALL,
IN P.O.W. CAMP '
In a letter just to hand, dated Oc
tober 14, -Sgt. Alf Palmer describes a
Rugby football match played in' Sta:
lag 357, Germany, between New Zea
land and South Atrica teams, drawn
from prisoners of war in that camp.
The writer added that they ' were two
heavy packs of forwards. First aid
had to be rendered seven times, but
for all that, the game was quite clean
and an excellent exhibition of Rugby.
South Africa won 5 to 3.

 

From the names on the back of the photo in post 1

Left column (top to bottom)

Name: B S Van Der Merwe
Rank: Cpl.
Army Number: 195916
POW Number: 274771


Name: J V Rall
Rank: Sgt.
Army Number: S.A.P.195924
POW Number: 222876


Name: N E Shamley
Rank: Sgt.
Army Number: 186832
POW Number: 274754


Name: G J Coetsee
Rank: Cpl.
Army Number: 198248
POW Number: 224944


Name: H B Youngleson
Rank: Pte
Army Number: 32172
POW Number: 263188


Name: A R Hinds
Rank: Cpl.
Army Number: 11528
POW Number: 262627


Name: M L Moore
Rank: Gunner
Army Number: 114779
POW Number: 225098


Name: C A Van Der Westhuizen
Rank: Pte
Army Number: 107715
POW Number: 274208


Name: J McG Oehley
Rank: Sgt.
Army Number: 12162
POW Number: 22416


Name: N Hinds
Rank: Cpl.
Army Number: 221464
POW Number: 224076


Name: I J Zietsman
Rank: Pte
Army Number: 196164
POW Number: 274782

L.G.K.L - Unfound/unknown

TD