Sub Area HQs in Italy 1943/44

I am trying to discover the role and whereabouts of HQ 71 Sub Area and HQ 103 Beach Sub Area during November 1943 to March 1944, as part of tracing my father's movements prior to returning to UK.

My father served with 1 Green Howards in 15 Brigade, 5 Div in Italy and was badly wounded on 5th November 1943 in the area of Rionero in Vulture. He was evacuated to 98 General Hospital in Bari, and subsequently, on the X(iv) List, he was attached to HQ 71 Sub Area from 16th December to 28th January 1944, then to HQ 103 Beach Sub Area until 3rd March when he embarked for UK. During this period 1 Green Howards kept no War Diary, and TNA does not seem to have any entries under these unit names. There appear to be no medical records for this period, so official information is lacking

I am trying to find out where these HQs would have been, and what their roles would have been. This might tell me also where he would have embarked from, to fill in his movements.

I would be very grateful if any member can help out with information.
Bernard

 

Bernard.

Have you tried looking under the TNA’s AMGOT files.

Regards

Frank

 

Bernard,

The Sub Areas were part of the administrative/logistic organisation of the army. They would have been responsible for controlling all of the logistic back-up units (RASC transport, REME maintenance, RAOC supply units, etc, etc). I’ve got some diaries for the sub areas from Normandy and they contain loads of detail of the Lines of Communications organisation.

Regards

Tom

 

Thank you Frank. I have not tried AMGOT - I will. What does it stand for, and what do they cover?
Bernard

 

Thanks, Tom. Do these Sub Areas figure among your Normandy diaries? My father would have been on light duties, and well versed in admin, so I expect he had a desk job somewhere, but neither Sub Area seems to have left a diary under their unit names. Am about to pursue Frank's suggestion of looking under AMGOT. I will let you know how I get on. Thanks for responding.

 

Bernard,

Try WO169/9246 - that’s the war diary for HQ 71 Sub-Area for 1943.

I’ll take a look tonight and see if I’ve got anything for 103 Beach Sub Area.

Regards

Tom

 

I may be missing the point, but are these not the diaries?

Reference: WO 169/10218
Description: 1 Green Howards (Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own Yorkshire Regiment)
Date: 1943 Jan.- Dec.

Reference: WO 170/1392
Description: 1 Green Howards (Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own Yorkshire Regiment)
Date: 1944 Jan.- June

 

Thank you for the suggestion, Frank. I had not, but I have asked TNA for info and expect a response in the next few weeks. I will update in due course. Bernard

 

Hello Tom
I have searched HQ 71 Sub Area by name, and under WO 169/9246. Both searches produce 0 results. What am I doing wrong?
Regards
Bernard

 

Hello Charley. It may be me! Thank you for your response. I have searched both your references, by Ref and by Description, and by other variations. All come up with 0 results. He had effectively been detached from the Green Howards following his injuries, but the 1943 Diaries would perhaps be useful. The Museum of the Green Howards told me they do not have War Diaries for 1 Bn during the relevant period, so I am perplexed. Regards Bernard

 

Make sure you search in Discovery, not the website search at the top right.

Discovery | The National Archives

Search results: WO 169/9246 | The National Archives

 

Thank you Gary (the Discovery tip unlocked both the relevant diaries), plus Charley, Tom, Frank and Owen. Thanks to all your comments/advice, I have downloaded the March 1944 war diary for 103 Sub Area and found the date and place of my father's leaving Italy (Naples); and found the 1943 war diary for 1st Green Howards - which is not available online - and am arranging for it to be copied and sent to me. This might shed light on where and when he was so badly wounded that he was effectively non-operational for 12 months. I hope the combined information will bridge the existing gap. He recovered, rejoined the war in January 1945 and finished up in Berlin in July.
I am very grateful to you all.
Bernard

 

Please do come back and update us once you've been through the various diaries.

We like a story with an ending!

 

Me too!! I will indeed - but it may be a while, because the diaries I need are not available online and have to be printed.

 

Sorry, I didn't read the thread properly. This is 1 GH War Diary for 5th November 1943. They were training at the time.



You're not paying TNA to copy this file are you?

 

Thank you for following up.
TNA info is that this Diary is not available to download, they will do a page count, given the period of interest, and quote for copying and postage etc. That is where we are at the moment. iGH was in 5 Div on their round-the-world trip until 9 March 1943, when they were SOS PAIC in Iraq, and transferred to 8th Army for action in Sicily and Italy. I want info on 1GH for 1943, but I am not sure what TNA has.
So, yes I am expecting to pay TNA for the work involved - unless you know better! My interest is in the whole of 1943 if the War Diaries exist for that period, because Aris's book on 5Div 1939 to 1945 is no great help, but it seems that no units in 5 Div kept diaries, so it may be that only the period from 9 March is covered. Your extract seems to be Sheet 1, for 1st November, and covers 5th, the day my father was badly wounded according to his 199A, and hospitalised, medically non operational for 12 months, but no mention in the diary. He did return to duty on Eisenhower'e staff in September 1944 . Perhaps the dates in the 199A are wrong - he was the Battalion QM, and the QM is mentioned on 1st (not by name).
If you can shed more light on these dates I would be grateful, otherwise I am still awaiting TNA response.

 

The quote from TNA will be very high.

Researchers here will do the same job at a much more sensible rate.

 

Hi Bernard,

I take it your father was Captain F.L. Allen?

The form you mention - does it mention an injury? The reason I ask is that the casualty lists do not have him listed, meaning it was a non-battle injury or alternatively illness.



All units of 5 Division would have kept war diaries. I have 1 GH from September 1943 - June 1944, as Italy is my interest.

As Charley mentions the TNA costs will be very high - having had this file I would estimate at least £150+, possibly much more.

I copy files for forum members so I can help out. However, I do have a backlog as our glorious rail workers have severely curtailed my visits this year - I had two planned this month (including tomorrow) but have had to cancel both.

Regards,
Gary.

 

Bernard.

My strong recommendation is to get Gary to sort the WDs that you need.

He always provides a first class service.

Regards

Frank