Swansea Flying Incident

When writing a family history a cousin brought up in Swansea told me a story.
She was a child at the time when the family were evacuated because of a large mine dropped by the Germans in their street.
They all moved out renting The Manse on the Gower Peninsula.

In May 1941 they saw a plane coming in very low, it crashed close by and the adults (all female and one heavily pregnant) ran over the fields to help the pilot.
They got him out but he was dead, riddled with bullets.
Some men came from the village nearby and carried his body to the road.

Years later my cousin recounted this to an author of a book "Fallen Flyers" who had investigated the crash.
The pilot was a Canadian named Bill Rider flying a P40 Tomahawk.
He left his airfield in the south of England with three others to investigate the death of a friend at RAF Pembrey near Swansea the day before.
Fog closed in so three of the planes turned back but for some reason Bill carried on.
When Steven Jones the author of the book investigated the site with a metal detector he found a large number of spent British 20mm rounds, he concluded that the aircraft was shot down by either a ship or coastal defences.
Both Canadian pilots lie in Brookwood Cemetery Surrey.

 

William Albert Rider - The Canadian Virtual War Memorial - Veterans Affairs Canada



Peter William Lochnan - The Canadian Virtual War Memorial - Veterans Affairs Canada

 

Surprising what can crop up on the internet.

 

I doubt very much that the details supplied by Alieneyes, just cropped up

TD



From reading the above it doesnt sound as though he was shot at by either ship or coastal defencesm in fact the opposite in that AA tried to help him find an airfield

Further to above it seems he died from
A fractured skull, fractured cervical vertebrae, and compound leg fracture, so basically he broke his neck in the crash. There are no indications that he was shot in any way

 

As a new member you clearly don’t know that Dave has a wealth of knowledge and material obtained from personal research in the Canadian Archives (before a little of it was made available on the internet) on RCAF that he freely shares with forum members.

He was very helpful to me some years ago. He was instrumental in my making contact with long lost relatives in Canada starting from just one named photo of my mother’s cousin in the uniform of a RCAF officer pilot.

Little of what Dave shares on the forum just “crops up on the internet”.

Steve

 

Contacted my cousin who now lives near Bristol ref photo no reply yet. She recently lost her husband so I try not to bother her but will drop her some more info if she is interested.
Before I made notes of her story she discussed it with her older sister who went with their aunts to help the pilot.
I witheld minor details in respect for the dead pilot and possible relatives but nothing of importance. Men came from the village and carried him away on an old door as it was all they had. They told the ladies that what they had done was very brave but foolish as the plane could have exploded.

 

There were no men at home at the time as they were working most of them in Swansea but the cousin who told me the story was staying there to get away from the bombing in Bristol.
Her father was a skilled engineer so was sent there by the Ministry of Works to Filton for War Work repairing damaged planes.
One of my relatives died in the Filton Raid and is remembered on thei War Memorial.

 

I have to ask

If he was 'riddled with bullets' we can only assume they would be 20mm canon from the AAA, that would mean that there would not be much of him left if 'riddled', and it couldn't be the ammunition from the aircraft as that had not exploded at that time

Plus the 'coroners notes' on his injuries that his caused death [http://ww2talk.com/index.php?attachments/lochnan-jpg.226142/]

So I am confused to know where he was supposedly riddled with bullets and the conclusion reached by the author of the book all comes from

TD

 

How often do memories fail to match the written facts.
I have had several family stories from my own and several others that have proved to be muddled or downright incorrect.

Which sometimes raises questions about the records but they are an amalgamation of various pieces of evidence from others. This was the memory of two children in a time of stress and possibly elevated by local rumour.
Makes one think it should not have been mentioned and no doubt why our forbears were reluctant to speak of the war.
I am repeating a story from my own memory, must I have to quote frm a book at all times?
I am as infallable as the next man.
This is my mention of story, dont mean to be rude but we are not holding a court of enquiry.
That was done years ago.
The book Fallen Flyers is still available when I lat looked on Amazon. I have never read but if it is of interest to yourself or othrs you can get a copy to check out the story yourself.
Reading my notes the author actually said that her comment riddled with bullets was interesting as the story is full of mystery and he had visited the site with a metal detector. This was after the book was written my cousin having read it and recognised the story.

 

So you are saying that the author of the book took the story of 2 young children at the time, used a metal detector and found a large number of spent British 20mm AAA shells and made the conclusion that this aircraft and pilot were shot down, and that he did not go to any original source information that would have been available at the time to verify these conclusions??

We all understand that stories change with time, but often and from other stories I have read, many children found the war an exciting time to live in, and not stressful at all. I would suspect that adults, especially those from the armed forces, would indeed be reluctant to talk about their feelings, but I think children would see the world in a different way, so I would expect the childrens memories of what happened would be reasonably accurate, but perhaps a little exagerated.

TD

 

A post script. I am now 70 and am only too aware that my memory is not infallable my cousin is approx 10 years older, her sister 6 or so years beyond that.
I thought itt an interesting story and am frankly surprised at the reaction to it.
Perhaps it is a lesson in the learning regarding internet communications and how to open Pandoras box even when trying to be careful about what one says.

 

Its not a Pandoras box

I am 66 so age is not the problem - what is a problem to me is the conclusions made by the author of book when there was (and still is) details of the incident avavilable that to me anyway discredit his conclusions, or at least show a possibility of a completely different conclusion.

We have had other threads such as this and through discussion and the provision of documents (official and otherwise) the correct and right conclusion of what happened in an incident has manifested itself - its a part of what this forum is about.

TD

 

Then I must review my membership the site has many good points but this is a huge disappointment and certainly not a pleasure any more.

 

Hi,

Please don’t take this the wrong way - If you don’t mind my saying I think you are being rather thin skinned in your reaction to the way this topic has panned out in revealing an accurate account of the circumstances of the death of a Canadian airman from contemporaneous records dicovered, and shared, by forum members.

It is not unusual for a forum member - usually but not always a new member - to recount a family story in an topic post which - following contributions from forum members - results in a more accurate record of the facts being revealed.

While you clearly have a detailed knowledge about your relatives service in RA, that you have already shared with forum members since you recently joined the forum - adding to their knowledge - you may find as you post on other topics that subsequent forum members posts may be able to provide you with a response that better informs your knowledge of the subject matter.

Steve

 

You are not the first to use that type of phrase.
I joined the site for the pleasure of sharing my knowledge and some unique stories from a man who died.
Whilst awaiting my computer repair I posted a few odd items on a borrowed computer to keep myself active.
This has brought about unforeseen consequences.

I retired four years ago aged 66 due to the stress of work.
This has now passed and my health is good.
However I am not going to put myself in that position again. I want to live a little longer and enjoy my family around me.
Such exchanges wind me up too much. I find them aggressive.
It involves elderly relatives who I do not wish to upset.

I must therefore assess the benefits of the site against the liabilities.

At the moment it is not looking good.

Do I need to resign, can I be deleted from the member list, or simply tick boxes to stop the emails to my address and go away.
Please advise.

I will go through a cooldown period before I decide.

Perhaps Uncle Target is an unfortunate name under the circumstances.

 

Hi,

I appreciate the strength of character required to share the self reflective and personally insightful comments you have posted above.

All members use the forum for pleasure - and to share knowledge - not to wind either ourselves or other members up.

As a general observation I think it is sometimes the case that new members can be “too full of enthusiasm”, if I can use that phrase, to contribute what they know (or think they know as fact) - often as a tribute to relatives who served - and can often be “upset” at the “corrective” factual responses of other members or perceive a reply as a personal slight which was never intended by the other member.

The best advice I could give you is to try and “chill out” and enjoy what is on offer within the forum and put today’s exchanges behind you

Best Wishes

Steve