Tank Deliveries to North Africa

Thanks to everyone who contributed to my recent topic regarding 1st Army Tank Brigade.
It has lead me to realise that I am asking the wrong questions!
As MarkN pointed out, the units the tanks were allocated to was; a) impossible to follow and; b) largely irrelevant anyway.
I have come to reason that the better approach is simply for me to look at month by month deliveries of tanks (by type) to Egypt. Then, as I see it I only have to subtract those that disembarked there, but were earmarked for other locations in the Med, Middle East & East Africa.
I feel that I should start at the declaration of war with Italy (10th June 1940) and move forward month by month.
My understanding is that the tank numbers at that time were as follows. (Please feel free to comment and correct).

26x Lt MkVIa.
22x Lt MkVIb.
47x A9.

If mods want to move this thread to "North Africa" or somewhere else they deem more appropriate.........

Thanks in advance,
David.

 

Hi David

Part of the puzzle is answered here:

http://rommelsriposte.com/2014/02/23/british-and-us-tank-deliveries-to-egypt-july-1941-to-january-1942/

All the best

Andreas

 

Hello.

In Military Modelling articles about british cruiser tanks by Peter Brown, there are references about some A10 arriving in late spring/summer? 1940.
Unfortunately i don't have the articles now, but i do have some notes (unsure of source and reliability):
10 A10/month expected to start in july [don't arrive]
18 A10 expected November

In September arrives the Apology convoy with:
2 RTR: 6 A9 CS; 28 A10; 18 A13
3 HUS: 52 light VI B
7 RTR: 7 light VI B; 50 infantry II

regards,

-Nuno

PS: as soon as tanks arrived they started to get swapped with other units, became damaged-repaired-reissued, so actual returns in battle were different.

 

Thanks guys.

I'm going to go month by month chronologically, or else this is going to get messy!

 

Peter Brown in his MM article on the A9 states that the ME tank state in April 1940 was: 25 LT Mk.III and 149 LT Mk.VI (all versions) and 68 A9 cruisers.

Across his articles, there are a number of check points where he also lists tank states at later dates in 1940 and early 1941. I won't post them now as there are a number inconsistancies in his calculations and tables.

However, the next check point of real note, due to it's detail (and backstopped by Peter Brown) is the Jentz information for 1 March 1941.

31 LT Mk.III
36 LT Mk.VI
55 LT Mk.VIA
276 LT Mk.VIB
1 LT Mk.VIC

66 A9
6 A9CS
89 A10
12 A10CS
85 A13II

30 Matilda II
35 Matilda IIA

He notes w/o as 5 Cruisers, 13 Light and 1 Infantry. (My analysis shows the 5 w/o cruisers as 2 A9 and 3 A10.)

You can now calculate the total number delivered between April 1940 and March 1941. On this forum and axishistory, you have great detail presented on what was sent and allocated to 3H/2RTR/7RTR, later B/4RTR and a bit later the various units and sub-units of 2nd Armoured Division. The remainder are tanks that were delivered unallocated into reserve or as pre-planned replacements. Whether those tanks came out alongside the tanks of the units mentionned here, or completely separately (as 18 x A10 did in November 1940), I cannot say.

 

Thank you Mark.

Those figures are going to be of help.

The Problem with using the two dates and sets of figures you quote above is of course that they are skewed, because there would have been an unspecified number of tanks destroyed by then that do not appear in the figures.

Unless someone has a better idea, I still think that deliveries received month on month is going to be my best approach.

 

According to Jentz, and he is quite specific, the destroyed figure is 5/13/1 as I wrote above.

Of those listed as remaining, probably in the region of 80 cruisers and probably 100 light tanks were in heavy maintenance and I suspect a significant number of those never saw the light of day again as they were so badly smashed up or cannibalised to support others. Also, all 16 of B/4RTR seem to remain on the list and I we know they can't all be in a fit state - but since they were in Sudan/Eritrea, I suspect Cairo just listed them as is. The same applies to the tanks of B/6RTR in Sudan/Ethiopia.

But, I thought you were looking for the total delivered, not the total operational, so the data stands as, if Jentz is correct, you can work out the total: those remaining plus those w/o.

After this date it becomes more complex as you never get a total generated in the same way.

 

Thanks Mark.

Now I understand. (I wondered what the w/o tanks were) That information now becomes incredibly helpful.

Are the 36x Lt Mk VI quoted on 1st of March by Jentz unidentifiable as a,b or c? Or is it a typo?

Can anyone list the arrivals of tanks to Egypt between 2nd March 1941 and 30th June 1941? (apart from the Tiger convoy as I have it). That is the next hole I have to fill.

Many thanks,
David. (learning daily!).

 

Tank deliveries during 1941 are written about by both Brown and Jentz. There is a thread on axishistory where their information has been posted.

A Light Tank Mk.VI is a Light Tank Mk.VI. No typo.

 

Mark.

I'll try to find the topic over on AHF.

Re Lt VI, I guess they did not have the detailed info on the type.

 

Found the topic on AHF easily enough. Thanks for highlighting it.

 

What do you mean?

The Light Tank Mk.VI is a Light Tank Mk.VI. That is its designation. You cannot add any letters because then it would be something different.

 

I have never heard of a Lt Tank MkVI before. Only a Lt Tank Mk VIa, a Lt Tank Mk VIb, a Lt Tank MkVIc, and a Lt Tank MkVI AA.

Still learning daily!

 

Here you go David.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/gb/Vickers_light_MkVI.php

If the delivery info is correct though I would seriously doubt they were original Mk. VI. Much more likely that whoever entered the info into the documentation couldn't be bothered with a/b/c.

All the best

Andreas

 

Thanks for that Andreas.

I think that I am happy with 1940.

Also happy with the first half of 1941.

So to July 1941.

Convoy WS8x. what is the composition of the 50 Cruisers by type.

 

I'm lead to believe the Mk.lll went out in '33 for what was, or became, 6RTR.

In October 1935, 1 (light) RTR went out with about 60 off Mk.IVA accompanied by a company of Mediums Tanks Mk.II destined for 6RTR. The Light Tanks Mk.IV went out a little later with more Mediums so that 6RTR became a mixed battalion. All in response to Mussolini's meddling in Abyssinia and concerns on the Libyan border.

1RTR returned after 12 months but left their tanks, the VIAs, in situ.

In 1938, 1RTR was sent out a second time, more permanently, with 52 off Light Mk.IVB.

All off the top of my head, so corrections and specific dates welcomed.

 

I seem to think that the NZ Div Cav Reg ended up with a handful of those Lt MkIII in early 1940.

 

Perhaps towards the end of 1940, at the beginning they will still in use with 7H and/or 8H.

12 were sent to Kenya and used by the Sarf Afrikaaners in Ethiopia.

Those not sent were used by the New Zealanders and the Australians. Probable the Poles too.

You may have noticed the Mk.lll increased in number during 1940. At least 10, probably 14, of the 'Dutchmen' were sent out for onward delivery to Greece. Others may have been sent out too.

 

Hi!

"The same applies to the tanks of B/6RTR in Sudan/Ethiopia."

AFAIK a total of 7x A9 and 7x light VI were sent.
I have read reports of A9 being "cannibalized" and 1 light and A9 destroyed. Anyone have additional info? Were thet later re-utilized?
Are we sure they were still being counted in the Middle East total of March 1941?

About the "5 Cruisers, 13 Light and 1 Infantry" destroyed i find it hard to believe, for instance according to CAB-65-14-17, by 31 July 1940 they had already lost 5 light tanks.
During the Summer at least one A9 was captured by the italians
And i think A/3 Hus lost a further 10 light tanks in Buq Buq on 11 December 1940.

Is it a case of not counting as destroyed even if it was just a flaming hulk?
Any thoughts?

regards,

Nuno

 

Hi Nuno,

There are varying reports on what tanks B/6RTR consisted. A note in WO169/27 has them with 8 Light Tank and 6 Cruisers A9.

Given that, upto April 1941, the British were generally moving forward, they were able to recover those tanks knocked out, broken down or whatever during the advance. Now, what degree of damage or disrepair is required to classify as a total write off (w/o) or 'wastage' is a mystery to me. However, the official data from GHQ ME is that, up to 1 March 1941 (but applicable until 30 March), only 5 Cruiser, 13 Light and 1 Infantry tank had been written off the books. Everything else, despite its state of (dis)repair was still on the books.

Now, DavidW is interested in deliveries, not the number of 'operational tanks', the number of 'runners', or any other word that categorises the state of (dis)repair. So, it's immaterial to him. The numbers presented above give him what he needs.

As regards to the state of (dis)repair within the fleet, as I wrote above, I believe a large number of those still on the books never got out of the workshop or provided any further use to the war effort other than, perhaps, being stripped for spares.