Tank Deliveries to North Africa

Can anyone clear up an anomaly for me please.

My records have 31x Lt MkVIc being allocated prior to 01/07/41. However, looking at the figures given earlier and in the links, I think only 22 had been delivered up to that date.
Can anyone tell me which units got the 22? So that I can correct my records.

Thanks in advance.

 

Another quick question.

Were any of the A15MkI on the Tiger convoy C/S models?

 

Don't know how you get to either 31 or 22....

2 were dispatched from the UK and arrived in Malta in November 1940. These 2 are NOT included in ME tank stats.

1 was dispatched from the UK and arrived in Sudan in December 1940. This is included in ME tank stats and is the single one noted in Jentz's information. This tank probably reached Egypt in May 1941 in a very sorry state.

6 were dispatched from the UK and arrived in Egypt in April 1941.

28 were dispatched from the UK and 21 arrived in Egypt in May 1941 with 7 having been lost enroute.

That's 27 definite arrivals in Egypt, most probably 28.


There does not seem to be a record of how many 4RTR took into action during Op BREVITY, and thus no detail on any losses.

Both 4 and 7RTR took them into OP BATTLEAXE, and it seems reasonable to assume a full complement of 7 each. Jentz notes at least 3 were lost (4RTR x 1, 7RTR x 2).

4RTR went into Tobruk with 6 light tanks. Any reason to suppose they swopped their remaining 6 VIC for somebody else's VIBs? If not, assume they took their VIC into Tobruk.

Regiments and HQ of 1 Army Tank Brigade took some into Op CRUSADER.

Well known WO stats show a total of 9 VIC lost in total in Middle East.

 

Thanks for clearing that one up Mark.

 

Any Lt VI AA sent prior to July 1941?

 

No problem, but I'm only repeating the same information that Dan Kane gave you 4 years ago.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1556223#p1556223

 

Yes, but obviously not as clearly as you.

 

You're too kind.

However, my concern was that sometime over the past 4 years, you made the decision to no longer believe Dan Kane's information as accurate.

I assumed this was because you had come across information from another source that you thought was more credible. Information that gave you the number 31 you say was in your records. How did you get to 31?

I believe Dan Kane's information is correct. If you have other information that says otherwise, please share.

 

Mark.

You should know by now that I make no claims as to the veracity of my information. I've long since stopped recording the sources, they are too various, and often contradictory. As for this instance, an erroneous inclusion of 3x Lt VI Mk.c .AA into my numbers is the most likely cause. And I the most likely offender.

Still looking for an answer to the A15MkI / MkI c/s query though......

 

The mystery of the TIGER convoy....

The precise contents of this are considered known. But are they? I thought I knew, now I'm not so sure.

The official history by Playfair states that the TIGER convoy sailed with 295 tanks in total, lost 57 enroute and landed 238. It does NOT give a breakdown of the types.

Peter Brown and Thomas Jentz have done extensive research and both show the number of tanks dispatched in April 1941 as 321. Jentz breaks this down as 28 Light, 99 Cruiser and 194 Infantry. Brown: 28 Light, 67 Cruiser Mk.VI, 29 Cruiser Mk.IV, 3 Cruiser Mk.II and 194 Infantry.

Further analysis by 'Andreas' shows that 26 tanks in these totals were on Convoy WS 8B which arrived in July 1941, whereas the TIGER Convoy which started as WS 8A arrived in May. When you subtract the 26 from the 321 total dispatched, you get 295 - which corresponds with the TIGER number. Problem is, Convoy WS 8B set off in May, not April, and theoretically shouldn't be included in the Jentz/Brown totals. Oh dear!!!

@Andreas, did you mean to say that those 26 tanks were actually in WS 8A (not WS 8B) and continued with the troopship part of the convoy arround the Cape and landed in Egypt in June with the troops?

Information is further complicated by documents existing that contradict this total. This is down to a lot of discussion prior to sailing as to what the exact contents should be. Here is an example of that...



Now we come to the second part. The tanks on WS 8B were 12 cruisers and 14 Infantry. That means TIGER consisted of 28 Light, 87 Cruiser and 180 Infantry tanks. We also understand that 7 Light and 50 Infantry were lost on Empire Song. Thus, the total landed in Egypt from TIGER would thus be 21 Light, 87 Cruiser and 130 Infantry tanks.

Now, I have NEVER seen this as the final totals.

Around the internet, and several credible published books, a variety of loads are depicted. The most common option details 21 Light, 82 Cruiser and 135 Infantry tanks. This one appears on Wiki, stolen from Barrie Pitt. Other variations exist as well with a common thread of only 50 Crusader tanks.



If Jentz and Brown are to be believed, and the WS 8B convoy split of 12 Cruiser and 14 Infantry tanks is correct, then TIGER must have landed 21 Light, 87 Cruiser and 130 Infantry tanks.

Comments anybody?

 

Is there any value in working backwards?

The one figure everyone seems to agree upon is the losses sunk of 50x Matilda & 7x Lt Mk VIc.

If any documents existed of the inventories unloaded in Egypt one would simply need to add the losses to get the totals dispatched.

This seems very simple to me. Too simple in fact for no one to have thought of it before me. I assume therefore that no such accurate unloading document(s) exist or have come to light.

 

Mark

I'll look into 'The Winston Specials'. Until I can do that Mr. Google found that Highland Monarch had a major collision and stayed in Durban for repairs for several months. Maybe if she was carrying the tanks they were simply unloaded on WS8b when that came through?

All the best

Andreas

 

Andreas,

Not criticising your work in any way. Just trying to get my dots to line up.

Highland Chieftain was in Durban so long it couldn't have delivered anything anywhere in July.

Jentz/Brown suggest tanks left UK in April. Only WS 8A left in April bound for Egypt. Off Gibraltar, the convoy split: most of it continued as WS 8A around the Cape and arrived Egypt in June; a smaller part darted through the Med as the TIGER convoy and arrived in May.

WS 8B left the UK at the end of May, and arrived in July having gone via the Cape.

So, I'm left with two possibilities initially, and a third worth considering....

1) Those 26 tanks were on a ship in WS 8A but went around the Cape - thus they arrived in June not July.

2) Those 26 tanks were on a ship in WS 8B - thus they departed in May not April (note to Jentz/Brown).

3) You are on the right track regarding Highland Chieftain, but need a bit more research. Look at this:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/90/a1084790.shtml
Nieuw Amsterdam was part of a 3 ship convoy WS 9A2 Durban-Suez. It arrived in Suez during July. The troops from Highland Chieftain were transferred across South Africa. Could it be the tanks were too?

If this last thought has merit, then it brings the data into synch datewise but would need you to amend your data as to which convoy those 26 tanks arrived on: WS 9A2 not WS 8B.

If you have definite information that they were landed as part of WS 8B, then throw out my idea. And consider the possibility that somehow they found space to load the tanks on in Cape Town or Durban to already full ships.

Of course, this all supposes that they were on Highland Chieftain in the first place. If not, we're back to square one.

One riddle after another.....

 

OK.

Do we have any more detail on the make up of the 50 "Cruisers" listed as arriving on convoy WS8x? I think that there were at least 20x A13.

 

Assuming Ismay and the War Office were telling the truth, l can now clear up once and for all the TIGER details. Slightly different to what is currently believed to be true.

TIGER convoy had total 295 tanks: 180 Infantry II, 67 Cruiser VI, 20 Cruiser IVA and 28 Light VIC. A further 26 tanks continued arround the Cape with WS8: 14 Infantry II and 12 Cruiser IVA.
From WO despatch 1125 to CinC ME 27/4/41.

(edited to add. According to the 20th Monthly Progress Report by AFV1, 29/4/41, there were 3x Cruiser IIA and 29 Cruiser IVA. It doesn't specify whether those 3 were on the TIGER convoy or WS8.

Empire Song was carrying 45 Infantry II, 5 Cruiser IVA and 7 Light VIC.
From Ismay to Churchill in response to memo 160/1 of 8/5/41.

 

Good detective work Mark!

 

Can you apply your talents to working out what type of Cruiser tanks were on board convoy WS8x?

 

44 off Cruiser IVA
6 off Cruiser VI
14 off Infantry IIA*
36 off Infantry III*
1 off Light VII
15 off scout cars

 

Oh you complete star!

Thanks very much.

But you might regret it, as I'll probably have a load more for you later.

 

Today was last day at Kew. Flying home tomorrow.