Tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy – June and July 1944

Some other books I have recently been browsing through are these which also mention the 24th Lancers and some of the battles that they fought in etc.:

The D-Day Landing on Gold Beach: 6 June 1944 By Andrew Holborn –
Mentions an incident of three 24th L tanks being knocked out on 11th June 1944 in the area of St.Pierre:

The D-Day Landing on Gold Beach

Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy: The Combat History of SS Panzer Regiment 12 ...By Norbert Számvéber

Has some details about Tessel, Rauray etc. and mentions a number of Shermans being knocked out (and these can be searched for via the term Sherman - for example).

Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy

Similarly "The 12th SS: The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division" - By Hubert Meyer

Mentions numbers of Sherman's being knocked out, some in battles on dates in which the 24th L were engaged.

The 12th SS

Ps...

See also: World War II: Closing the Falaise Pocket | HistoryNet

For multiple references to the "the 24th Lancers" meaning the Polish i.e.

"The Polish 1st Armored Division advanced along two roads. The eastern column drove through Bout-du-Haut, Vendeuvre, Barou, and Hills 259, 258 and 240, while the western column moved through Rouvers, Sassy, Jort, Morteaux, Couliboeuf, Hill 159, Louviers-en-Auge and Hill 137. On the evening of August 17, the brigade commander, Colonel Thadeusz Majewski, ordered Major Zgorzelski to form a battle group to seize the high ground south of Louviers-en-Auge and Le Mesnil Girard, secure an observation point over the Trun Valley and destroy escaping enemy columns. The battle group consisted of the 10th Dragoons (a motorized cavalry regiment), the 24th Lancers (a regiment of M-4 Sherman medium tanks) and two anti-tank batteries."

For how "confusing" having 2 regiments of "24th Lancers" in this theatre might potentially have been...

 

24L were disbanded because, as Montgomery explained in the letter to WAC Anderson, he needed to reduce the number of tank units. Although 24L had suffered significant losses in tanks and men, they were at essentially full strength when disbanded and it was simply their bad luck in being chosen and similarly most likely something to do with Regimental seniority with 24L being one of the youngest Regiments. That also goes some way to explain the near mutiny mentioned in post #40.

Note: 24L fought in possibly the most hotly contested part of Normandy (Tilly sur Seulles and surrounding area), against the most fanatical German units (12th SS Hitler Youth Panzer Division and elements of the 2nd SS Das Reich Panzer Division) and the best equipped (Panzer Lehr) so it's not surprising that they were downright p****d off when their 'reward' was to be dispersed to the four winds.

 

Had a glance at the letter gd. wrote immediately after he was transferred from the 24th L to the SRY... which I've transcribed below...

[sharedmedia=gallery:images:29463]

7880500 Sgt.B.Symes
Sherwood Rangers
265 FDS.
B.L.A.
August 1st 1944

Dearest Phyl and Rob,
There is a nice big address for you. I’m not allowed to explain even yet why the change. As you probably know Regiments go in threes, the Sherwoods are sister Reg. to the 24th. I have all my boys with me, so it’s just a change of name at the moment. The application for a commission in the R.A.S.C. has probably gone into the waste paper basket by now, although I had a very good write up from the Sqn, “I can’t see them allowing first class tank commanders to beetle off” says the intelligence officer* and as…

…seven of us applied I suspect we’ve left it just a few years too late. Well, to continue with my story after I pulled Spud out we were sent off to keep an eye on a village, five Boche came out with their hands up and then dived into a hedge. I took my crate to look for them and hit a mine. We were all O.K., it only blew the track off. We were pulled off it and I was busy patching it up when we were told to scram. That was the end of that crate. We kept with the squadron in a truck until next day when Spud had a lump taken of his arm by a piece of shrapnel. I held his hand while it was being dressed and then saw him off to England. Later in the evening when we thought the day’s work was done….

…Eric came in with a broken leg. I didn’t see him. Next day we came back to the FDS (Forward Delivery Squadron) for another crate. After that more stuff was getting off at the beaches so we were eased off. Those first few days were a bit hectic, there wasn’t much stuff around and this country is thick with trees and high hedges, there could be a hidden Boche in every hedge and you just couldn’t spot them. We didn’t rely much on the French, they are only farmers and haven’t done too badly.**
One other little thing Sgt. Cooper was sat in a hedge late one evening when a Tiger tank came up, he didn’t know what it was until it was twenty five yards away, Cooper is quite bold, so was the…

…Boche and they sat there looking at each other for a moment. Cooper was quickest to the draw and got the Tiger.
The weather out here was lovely yesterday but today it’s misty and doesn’t look like clearing.
I don’t know how your mail will come now, it may be okay as they know where we are.
If you haven’t yet written to Spud you might give him my new address.
Well darling they seem to be chasing him now***, I do hope for everyone’s sake that they’ll chuck it, if they don’t know now that they’re beaten then they must be mad.
All my love to you both from your loving husband, Ben.

* Captain J. Kenneth Gill was the Intelligence officer of the 24th L (So this might have been him)

** (i.e. in helping us (the allies) despite being only farmers)

*** (i.e. the Germans)

................

So I agree that despite losses being mentioned they were able to replace these and weren't disbanded for being "under strength" or "depleted" and had not "run out of either tanks or men" so it's wrong to suggest this

Gd. chose to go to the SRY because it was the sister Reg of the 24th L.

According to the 24th L WD for the 1st August 1944: "During the period 1 – 10 August, the Regiment was finally disbanded. All Officers and other ranks were posted, as far as possible to those Regiments or appointments to which they wished to go. A detailed
account of these postings will be found at the Appendix to this war diary"

The SRY took about 28 of the 24th L - along with 6 of the 24th L's tanks (a couple of which I think were fireflys). And these basically were to replace the SRY's own recent losses, which I guess were mostly of the DD type of Sherman tank as the arriving 24th L were put into the B (formerly DD equipped) squadron of the SRY.

 

Re. the 265 FDS...

There's an outline on the topic of the "armoured replacement group" here:
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/23765-armoured-replacement-group/

And there are war diaries specifically for the 265 FDS in the National Archives...

265 Forward Delivery Squadron Jan 1944-Dec 1944 :
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4441003

265 Forward Delivery Squadron Jan 1945-Dec 1945 :
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4444842

265 Forward Delivery Squadron Jan 1946-Feb 1946 :
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4449117

 

"""I know of several ex 24L, including one who became very senior in 11th Armoured Division, who wore their 24th Lancers cap badge until the end of hostilities and with only the occasional 'challenge'."""

Rob,
I never thought about them being allowed to get away with that nice to think they did tho. As Reg Snowling kept saying to me the 24th Lancers were the best Regiment he was ever in and he was in about 5 different Regiments with the 23Rd Hussars being his last. He still has a plaque on his wall for the 24th Lancers none of the others tho,
My phone just won't let me quote people correctly

 

Shaun,

Nan wore the 24th L broach after they had been disbanded and had a special affection towards it, and I have a feeling gd probably would have wanted to have worn the 24th Lancers cap badge along with the SRY - he certainly kept it at least, along with his others from the 9th, RTC and RAC.

24th Lancers Enamel front by Ramiles posted Feb 28, 2015 at 12:26 PM

[sharedmedia=gallery:images:28007]

I don't think I have found a photo yet of him in his SRY kit though, so I can't say for sure. He often mentions being filmed or photographed there though and quite often seems to have sent snaps back (he mentions these in the letters he sends), so I am hoping that one day they will all turn up

All the best,

Rm.

 

Back in the appendixes of this:

Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy: The Combat History of SS Panzer Regiment 12 ...By Norbert Számvéber

Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy

i.e. starting p238 and also another section from p250

There are lists of allied tanks and other weapons the Germans KO'd along with dates.

I tried to see if I could make much from this, noticing for example that they list KO'ing "479" Shermans - at the end of the table on p245 - and wonder if perhaps "around" 10% of these were the 24th L's ?

I did notice one thing though in the note #19 on p46 – where it says “The tanks knocked out were presumably duplex drive DD shermans and probably belonged to the 24th Lancers of the British 8th Armoured Brigade.”

Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy

This was about a battle on the 9th June 1944 - and I guess if these were DD tanks they were more probably those of the SRY or the 4/7 RDG. I did see this though for the SRY on the 9th June 1944:

SRY WD for the 9th June 1944:

"We held Pt.103 throughout the day in face of considerable A/Tk gun fire. There appeared to be about 14 enemy tanks in the neighbourhood of ST. PIERRE. Although the ground on Pt.103 gave some cover from view by various belts of trees, it, was almost impossible to take up a good hull down position to engage enemy tanks. Capt Douglas + Lt Bethell-Fox went on another Reccé Patrol, but ran into a strong enemy position in the valley. The last part of the patrol they did on foot as they had to cross a stream, and returned to our lines very wet and uncomfortable. Capt Douglas was killed by a heavy mortar shell. Lt Peter Pepler was also killed by a piece of shrapnel as he was entering his tank.
The rest of the Bde moved up and 4/7 D.G. took over our position and we retired a couple of miles to re-organise.
Lt. Howden had his tank knocked out – likewise Sgts Rush and Hudghton. It appears that the enemy is concentrating his fire on our 17 Pdrs.
The days are very long, as first light is approximately 0430 hrs and by the time replenishment is completed it is at least past midnight when we eventually get to bed."

 

Számvéber's book is just the version of events seen by 12th SS. It is, like all German accounts, full of stories where 20 Shermans burst into flames at the mere mention of the word 'Panther'. The HJ kill claims are absurd and Számvéber has a habit of only referencing works that confirm his initial bias (i.e. every German claim is true) and has a soft spot for Reynolds. I always check footnotes and found 2 examples where the reference to Reynolds supported Számvéber but when I checked out Reynolds version found examples of where there were 2 conflicting versions in documents and Reynolds only used the version that reflected well on the Germans.



Example:

Page 184 Reynolds: Steel Inferno.
'but then as the 5 RTR (5th Royal Tank Regiment)tanks surged forward just before 1900 hrs on either side of Bouguebus they ran headlong into Jochen Peiper's 1st SS Panzer regiment and lost 8 Cromwells cite 42 There was nothing to be done but pull back into Four and Soliers'

42-22 Armd Brigade War Diary 19 July 1944

Perhaps we should go right to the source and consult the War Diary of 5 RTR:

19July
’B’ Sqn plus 2 platoons of ’l’ Coy 1 RB passed through ’A’ Sqn who had formed a firm base at Grentheville and pushed into Soliers, clearing minor Inf. opposition on the way, which they then made firm. Spasmodic AP fire came from the direction of the left flank (direction of Four) but nothing was seen of the tanks or SPs. ’B’ Sqn was ordered to put 2 troops in Bourguébus which arrived in the outskirts after carefully working their way there, a few minutes before
3 Tigers and 2 Panthers came into the village. In the ensuing fight 2 Tigers and 1 Panther were brewed up for the loss of 1 Cromwell. The enemy then withdrew and at first light the 2 troops of ’B’ Sqn returned to Soliers where the Sqn leaguered for the night

 

Well... I was a bit surprised that a search with "Lancers" only seemed to lead to one page: Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy

And that appeared to be "somewhat wrong" :P

I tried looking for refs to the SRY (Sherwoods etc) there too and wasn't coming up with much

i found one or two refs though for Boislonde: Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy

It can be quite hard to find these in books as there are often many and varied spellings of this.

This still feels rather like a "skattergun" approach though. A while ago I was trying to find out more about the very first tank losses (and casualties etc) of the 24th L and didn't get very far though, there didn't even seem to be very much particularly about, about the first "stuart" tank that they had knocked out near Loucelles / Putot-en-Bessin or even whether they were fired on on the beach and perhaps lost a tank there? They seemed to have lost one due to a damaged prop whilst unloading though.

Even the (early) sniper actions on the tank commanders of the 24th L seem to be rather clouded in a FOW (fog of war) now, that seems pretty hard to see through from here.

It's a funny old thing this sifting through the "versions of events seen" or reported thereafter.

I watched that "Light of Dawn - the Normandy Landings" program (I'd recorded) recently: http://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/the-light-of-dawn-the-normandy-landings/episodes/



And there seemed to be one or two versions seen there - especially on the maps of the Normandy theatre that they used since they seemed to place rather more Germans in the west of Normandy and only seemed to have had Canadians where the 8th Armoured was.

I probably didn't watch it closely enough though, so will I expect have to watch it again some time to have a better understanding of it all. :wink:

 

For June 11, 1944,

KIA were Lt. Edward .A.A. Webb
Sgt. Frederick J.W. Fielder

Both are mentioned in "None had lances"; Before I go (Rev. Mark Green) and Tilly-sur-Seulles 1944.


I've completed transcribing all the Grave Registration Forms for the 24th Lancers into Excel and I'm now overlaying maps of the day, for those that may be interested.

Has anyone read the Photocopy of typed transcript of the diary of Dr. Aitken, Regimental Medical Officer, 24th Lancers, June-July 1944, during the invasion of Normandy ? They are with the Wellcome Library and not available on-line.


David Fielder

 

David

Very good work there. Well done. Obviously would be further interested.

In answer to your last question, no in my case. Not heard of anyone else reading them but that, on its own, obviously doesn't mean no one else has.

 

Hi David,

Good work, I look forward to seeing the results.

Re. the “Photocopy of typed transcript of the diary of Dr. Aitken, Regimental Medical Officer, 24th Lancers, June-July 1944, during the invasion of Normandy” that’s with the Wellcome Library and not available on-line, I was aware of its existence and I have seen a number of references to it and noticed it being quoted from a number of times but I haven’t seen the whole thing myself as yet. I'll see if I can pick out a few more quotes from it sometime.

Wellcome Library Western Manuscripts and Archives catalogue

Medic: Saving Lives - From Dunkirk to Afghanistan : By John Nichol, Tony Rennell : Medic

Hopefully they (i.e. Wellcome or someone) will, if they can, make it available online one day though.

Re. this site:

Lt. Edward .A.A. Webb
Fallen Heroes of Normandy | Detail

Sgt. Frederick J.W. Fielder
Fallen Heroes of Normandy | Detail

The page for Lt.Webb says he was in B squadron, and I think so was your Sgt.Fielder. According to: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/28929-24th-lancers/

Did you mention at some point as well that your relative might have been KIA on either the 11th or the 12th? I think you are sure now it was the 11th?
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/28929-24th-lancers/?p=352730

You say here (in link) that Lt.Webb was killed on the evening of the 11th, I assume the KIA’s therefore occurred at separate times in separate events?
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/573...y-sur-seulles-normandy-june-1944/#entry692624

Have you managed to tie down any more info re. your grandfather yet, or are you still looking for info that is not specifically in any of the books you mention?

My own grandfather died in the 70’s so I guess wasn’t available to be quizzed by the authors and a lot of the people he knew were KIA, hence it has been particularly hard for me to find much out, added to which the pauperdom and often conflicting nature of some of the online data, and even in some books. The info he left himself has been great to go through, but it has been hard to match it all up with a lot of the already published stuff as quite a good deal of what he left was written either in (or very shortly after) the heat of battle or else many years later from what seem to be half remembered events.

All the best,

Rm.

i.e. I haven't yet seen anything like these, in any book as yet :

An unexpected visit to Monty's HQ: An unexpected visit to Monty's HQ

How granddad lost a bottle of whiskey and a Sherman tank: How granddad lost a bottle of whiskey (and a Sherman tank) in Normandy


Rescuing a "C" squadron 24th Lancers tank in no-mans-land in Normandy: Rescuing a C squadron 24th Lancers tank in no-man’s-land Normandy June 1944

 

Hi David, I certainly would be interested in seeing this as well.
I know I've already mentioned to you that our grandfathers are both buried in the same area of bayeux Cemetery yours being
XIV.K.16 and My grandad XIV.K.24 both on the same row. And on my visit last June as always the cemetery and newer headstones are looking immaculate as usual.

 

Hi Shaun,

Re. : Fallen Heroes of Normandy | Detail

You could post pics if you have them here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/60152-24th-lancers-roll-of-honour/

Re. some other refs. The Rev Leslie Skinner,
http://www.theguardian.com/news/2001/nov/21/guardianobituaries1

Also wrote about the 8th Armoured brigade - tho. attached to the SRY.
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/publication/34387

And there is a book called "the man who worked on Sundays"
The Man who Worked on Sundays
The Personal War Diary of the Revd. Leslie Skinner RAChD Chaplain, 8th Armoured Brigade, Attached Sherwood Rangers (Notts.) Yeomanry Regiment

And "By Tank into Normandy" by Stuart Hills (again tho. SRY)
By Tank Into Normandy

Along with the great website of the 4/7th RDG's: http://www.creullyclub.freeuk.com/frameset.htm

It is quite often possible to find (often passing) mentions of the 24th L and events surrounding them in these. Which can help to understand a bit more what occurred there.

But not always so easy to tell what actually occurred / was going on - i.e. as in something that was specifically written re. the 24th L. and mentions where they actually were, and what they did.

Ref. also the Canadian accounts of the battle of Putot-en-Bessin: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57068-battle-of-putot-en-bessin-7th-11th-june-1944/#entry664114

i.e. : www.canadiansoldiers.com

Which I don't think mentions the 24th L, though it does ref the "presence of British tanks" there.

And despite the 24th L having a battle honour for Putot-en-Bessin: 24th Lancers - Wikipedia

And having lost a number of tanks, along with KIA and WIA casualties.

 

Hi Rob,
I have a few photographs of headstones for 24th Lancers that I will post on the to the thread in your link. I have my grandads and the other soldiers in his troop 4th troop B Sqdn who were kia on the 12th June ( T W Mintoft, J W Brown, N Robinson and R J Stephens) this was lt Richard Leathers crew who are mentioned in NHL. I knew my grandad would have known them all. So when I was in Tilly-sur-Seulles. I made a point of visiting the cemetery. Unfortunately I didn't realise at the time that David's grandad was just a few feet away from my grandads it was only afterwards I realised
However anyone can get a copy of a photograph of a headstone via this site for a donation of about £3.50/£5 https://www.twgpp.org/index.php
Sorry I have gone a bit of thread subject again

 

No probs Shaun,

As "M kenny" said in post #4 above: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/602...in-normandy-–-june-and-july-1944/#entry696342

"This is a very tricky area and made more problematic by the way both sides losses are commonly recorded."

The site here: Fallen Heroes of Normandy | Detail

Says that the 24th L were "near Tilly" on the 8th June 1944 but as Steve (SDP) said in another post the area they were in was actually quite small, so "near Tilly" doesn't tie it down very far.

102 & 103 by Ramiles posted Apr 10, 2015 at 3:27 PM

[sharedmedia=gallery:images:28205]

This particular tank (driven by William Mant) was in my grandfather's "C" squadron 24th L - so knowing where his tank was knocked out, might help to tell me a bit more where on the 8th June 1944 my father and his crew, troop or squadron were.

Rm.

 

Rob
I just had a (very) quick look in NHL and in one account it doesn't give a definite date but does mention losses for that day and William mant was one of them.
It just says the 24th Lancers no particular squadron but they were held up at Putot-en-Bessin. But their mission for that day (8th June) was villers bocage. But I'm sure you already know this?

 

One other small piece. I can't say what happened to my Grandads tank Black Prince my Nanna said he's tank crew visited her some years after the war and told her my Grandad was "blown up" in his tank and I've seen references to tanks being hit by HE shells on the attack on Boislonde. She did say they his crew told her they all got out of the tank ok. Which suggest the tank was at least crippled causing them to abandon it. But whether it was permanently knocked out I can not say "yet"
So I'm guessing that my grandad because he was sitting out the top of the tank the HE explosion hit him directly but I don't know what sort of damage a HE shell can do to a sherman tank to put it out if action. Maybe it was hit more then once. I can only speculate maybe I'll ask the question on another thread about sherman tanks.

 

Thanks Shaun,

Gd. seems to suggest that they were heading that way - on route to Villers Bocage, however they "came up against some sort of obstacle, might have been a tank ditch or railway line" and a village where the Germans "knocked out one of our tanks on" his "left".

"about 200 yards from the village and that distance was covered by orchards. On my tank I had kept the 0.5 machine-gun mounted on top of the turret, these guns were a nuisance. The commanders had too much to do to shoot machine guns. However I kept mine and it was ready to fire. Without any target in sight I sprayed the apple trees with a nice long burst and a German dropped down. This surprised and fascinated me, I watched him pick himself up and with his arms raised come running towards me, no more than 30 yards. Suddenly he hit a single strand of wire about chest high and fell base over apex backwards, however he picked himself up and came on. I had hit him in the right hand. I signalled for him to pass behind me and away he went (later I inquired and was told he was alright and that he was in the bag). At this point we were told to withdraw so we pulled back only to hear on the radio that one tank had stalled and wouldn’t start, I expect the driver was punching the panic button, out in the open with a stalled engine can be nasty. I knew exactly where he was so came up on the air and said not to worry I’d pull him in. Giving my driver instructions to turn and be on his toes for a while we doubled back. Looking back now it’s queer to think that we were pulling each other to pieces with jokes while we hitched up the tanks in full view of the Germans, but I find that the immediate problem is the one that counts not what might happen. Needless to say that tank started up right away and gave no more trouble during its very short life."

So he seems to have noted his troop or a troop nearby losing a tank on his left, and then a little while later their losing the tank of Sgt. "Spud" Taylor - who was the tank commander in the stalled tank.

For me this sounds rather a lot like "Putot-en-Bessin" - particularly if the "railway line" was what they were facing there. However it could also be somewhere like Audrieu, Loucellels or Brouay.



I'm not sure what % or the British Sherman tank commanders kept their "0.5 machine-gun mounted on top of the turret" but it might make it a bit simpler to identify his tank in any picture that turns up, as he was a Sergeant in a "C" squadron 24th L tank and that would probably narrow it down.

I have seen some for example identifying this particular Sherman near to Tilly as perhaps being a "24th Lancer tank"

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib//44/media-44978/large.jpg



There's a discussion about some of the details on this here:
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234943773-help-needed-to-identify-a-spit-down-in-normandy-june-1944/

Including: "the Spit is MJ255 VZ*S, flown by Flt Lt H G Garwood. It suffered engine failure on 11th June. Garwood survived the fore landing."

And there is a colourised version of the same pic on something like pinterest too.

 

William Herbert Wainwright Jalland: British officer serving with the DLI on the attack on St.Pierre with armoured support, about 8.3 mins into the 8th Reel, as well as a section on the "effect of German 88mms guns on British tank attack" at around 19 mins.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80011684

REEL 8 Continues: further details of disembarking on beach; advance inland; orders to find lost brigadier; fate of brigadier. Recollections of operations as lieutenant with 8th Bn Durham Light Infantry, 151 Bde, 50th Div in Normandy, 1944: briefing for attack on St Pierre* with armoured support; nature of German opposition; disposal of bicycles; capture of St Pierre; German counter attack and withdrawal; use of PIAT against tanks; stopping of German infantry attack; effect of German 88mms guns on British tank attack; withdrawal to Point 103; character of German tank and infantry attacks; character of bocage; German use of tanks in bocage; problems with communication; disabling of Tiger tank with Hawkins Grenade.

* Their "briefing for attack" apparently consisted of their being told that there were a few cadets and one or two German tanks there...