Tankies from uniform?

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Ramiles, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Shaun

    On reflection, my earlier post was slightly sloppy when I used the word 'all' 24L. The RAC was only formed in 1939 so, in the case of your grandfather, he would not have worn a RAC badge but gone straight from his previous Regimental badge to a 24L badge.
     
  2. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    It's what I thought Steve. But I wasn't 100% sure. I only wondered because I have a queens bays, 17/21St L and 24L cap badge but not a RAC one which made me think he never had one originally.

    Shaun
     
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I was taking a look at some of these: "British tank crew ww2 battle dress"

    Text: British tank crew ww2 battle dress - Google Search

    Images: British tank crew ww2 battle dress - Google Search

    Though it was quite hard to find an example that will be "static" to link to - rather than to a for sale object - which will probably be taken down once sold, so could soon lead to a broken link.

    Then I came across the term "British Pixie Suit" :)

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29453]

    Which is what I at first thought this is / was :rolleyes: ?

    However according to the IWM...

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30100056

    "The Pixie suit was developed as a practical & warm garment to be worn inside armoured vehicles over the conventional uniform and adopted from 1943."

    So I'm not quite sure what exactly he is wearing there? (As I'd been assuming that this was taken probably before 1943).

    British Pixie Suit Images: British pixie suit - Google Search
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  4. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Hi Ramiles,

    I incidentally have two 24L sweetheart badges, not in the conventional sense, but two collar conversions; which wasn't uncommon either. They could have been modified postwar of course for veteran reunions perhaps? I don't unfortunately know. However, one is a die cast silver officers' version and the other a die stamped ORs intended pattern with alternative brooch pin device fittings on both.

    The gilt and enamel 24L badge you have is of course an officers No.1 Dress collar with the original factory brooch pin - the examples below are in my collection.

    You own a scarce badge with a wonderful history and provenance.

    Best,

    Marcus
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Out of interest the aforementioned "sweetheart" brooches:
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Marcus

    That's a brilliant collection of 24L badges.

    Do you have a connection to the Regiment?

    Steve Pannell
    Hon Sec 24th Lancers Old Comrades Association until we disbanded at a rather splendid Annual Reunion at the National Army Museum in about 2007.
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks for the pictures Marcus!

    I'd be interested too in knowing more about you! And what prompted you to start collecting?!

    All the best

    Rm.
     
  8. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Hi Steve and RM,

    Thank you for the most kind words.

    Regrettably, I do not have the privilege of any connection to the 24L; I am, just a mere collector to the six prestigious War Raised Cavalry Regiments.

    I often lament in fact that I have left it too late now in attempting to contact any former members of the six Regiments, as I have too many unanswered questions...and then even more.

    However, that's where this Forum has assisted me in getting a personal insight into these very said men and who they are and sadly were - I especially enjoy viewing the array of photographs.

    I initially started collecting cap badges as a kid in the 1970s, but daunted and hindered by the numerous restrikes, I therefore breached into collecting medals.

    That said, within the last decade or so, and myself now settled into a civilian occupation with a young family, I have returned to the badges realm with the sole emphasis concerning the WRC Regiments.

    Why the WRC? Well, from a collectors perspective the insignia is significant in so much that it evolved during the war and existed for a relatively short period of time.

    However, such detail aside, these small, dedicated and virtually unrecognised Regiments spanned in theatres of war and played rather instrumental roles in defeating the Axis forces. Alas, the 26th Hussars were disbanded before seeing any active service as a regiment, but its ranks were dispersed to other units and a good many to Wingate's famous Chindits.

    I hope I'm not imposing on this thread, but I thought I'd share a few more badges of notable interest:

    - The incipient Trial Pattern badge (J.R. Gaunt die), of which two are now believed (?) to reside in private collections; this badge of course is the forerunner to all worn by members of the 24L.

    - 24L, NCOs, Arm Badge attached to the J.R. Gaunt, Pattern Card. As you will be aware there was no photographic or paperwork evidence, nor recollection by former members attesting to this badge ever being issued or worn. Until, the advent of the revelatory and unique photograph posted on this Forum.

    However, after much deliberation and consideration, I personally feel this was perhaps a one-off occasion given the circumstances in which the image was taken.

    * Thanks again, Shaun, for permitting me to use the picture.

    - Lastly, one of my favourites. This is a die cast, silver plate, Firmin maker marked officers' pattern badge that would have been worn on the Service Dress cap. In addition, J.R. Gaunt die examples are known to exist in the silver plate form.

    Best,

    Marcus
     

    Attached Files:

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  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Stunning!

    Very pleased to read your post,

    Rm.
     
  10. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Likewise. A stunning collection.

    If you would like to speak to a few 24L veterans I'm sure it could be arranged.
     
  11. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    I'd relish the opportunity, Steve. Thank you very much.

    Best,

    Marcus
     
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    A bump :) Re. the cufflinks,


    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29484]

    Are they something Marcus that you might ever have seen before?

    I am still wondering if they were common/uncommon - a part of a uniform - or just a "personal fancy" - as I've not see anything else "yet" ;) that looks like them "out there" - limiting my "searching" though pretty much just to "google" is all...

    Re. the "daunted and hindered by the numerous restrikes" I have wondered (occasionally) at their prevalence out there. Always assuming that anyone with enough of an interest to seek out something of the "24th L" would soon have acquired a "good-eye" as to what was what. That said though the differences where there are some can sometimes seem to be quite slight.

    I have wondered occasionally though if there are many people with a 24th Lancers tea/coffee mug (not WW2 genuine I guess ;) )
    24th lancers | eBay

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  13. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Marcus and RM

    Marcus: I will send you a Personal Message later today. For obvious reasons I don't want to discuss personal information on an open Forum. Edit at 14.30: PM sent.

    Rob and Marcus: I don't know anything about cufflinks and I know where you are coming from re the mugs but, having said that, I do have some paper 24L drinks mats (genuine as used at, I believe, Annual Reunions some considerable time ago but clearly not WW2 vintage), a number of 24L Greetings Cards, a 24L lapel badge and ladies pendant, and some cloth napkins. None of these are WW2 period items but they are all 'genuine because they were produced by/for the 24L OCA' and shows what can build up over the years.

    Marcus and Rob: on a more puzzling front, I also have a badge that is uncannily like the 'trial' one described by Marcus.....but can't believe I've got the 'third' one! Marcus: is your badge cast or stamped? My example is cast and, in my mind, far too light in colour to be bronze. I'm not an expert but it also looks to be off a genuine die especially as it shows none of the well-known fake tell-tales.

    Marcus: I'm guessing you have Peter Seamans book about the six War raised Regiments?

    Rob and Marcus: if you would like a 24L drinks mat and greeting card, please PM your address to me and I'll drop them in the post.
     
  14. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    Personal fancy. The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers produced cuff links based on surplus mess dress buttons; as these are flat I suspect they are from blazer buttons. But a private purchase item, certainly.
     
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  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Staffsyeoman,

    That's what I was wondering :) Whether he (and many others) wore them as part of the regular uniform - or if they were dress wear - even what sort of vintage they might relate to. I have a mixed set of stuff and initially had not a great deal of clue as to where it all "fitted in". His war records helped a lot in understanding when each was probably employed.


    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28013]

    Gradually I have got (I think) a better handle on when he might have worn what but it's niggled me as to where the cufflinks "fitted in". Even half wondered if he had worn them mainly/mostly after the war.

    A query I have now re. the "officers broach" was whether there were rules as such on "private purchases" etc. as I could understand the war dept not wanting people to be out buying whatever they chose in terms of insignia etc. i.e. how "easy" was it just for someone "off the street" to buy a badge such as:


    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28007]

    ...privately for a loved one during the war? Presumably since it was a part of an "officers-kit" it wasn't just open to the general public to go out and buy? But soldiers and sergeants etc. I suppose could have made a case. Intriguing, anyhow.

    At some point i think he was up to become an officer, typically I guess these were mostly "given" out to officers initially anyhow? Albeit I think somethings like the silver "fear-nought"...


    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28011]

    He must have bought himself.

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  16. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    Sweetheart brooches and the like are not restricted; any man-jack can go buy them and a market emerges and flourishes - and exists still. It is infra dig to wear one to which you are in no way entitled, but who's stop you and who's to know? In the past, there were so many variations in design and manufacture to suit all ranks and pockets, from cheap base metal to breathtaking miniature works of art made of precious metals and stones. There was an implied "pecking order" for officers; cheaper ones - but perhaps of better quality (say silver and enamel) for the sweetheart, up a notch, say to include some precious stones for the fiancee; with the full whack precious metals and stones for mother. (It was expected that the fiance's would be upgraded on conversion to wife...) All these things are traditionally unofficial, and the free market reigns. These days there are "regimentally approved" ones which generate funds through the PRI/Regimental Shop; also, the images of cap badges are actually MOD copyright.

    As for cufflinks - not "on" to wear those in uniform and actually impractical in most cases, so probably made for civilian wear. And pre-war being RTC.
     
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  17. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Hi RM,

    Cufflinks:

    I'm afraid, I too, don't know about such bespoke items; however, did he serve in the Middle-East during the 1930s?

    The engraving on each "button" varies as if not done by the best of hands, and on the reverse of one there appears to the remnants of some lettering (former maker mark?) between two short lines. Is it possible to distinguish the lettering, at all?

    As to the officers collar, perhaps some sympathetic officer donated it to him? Incidentally, when was the letter dated, as I recall him describing them as "new" badges.

    I apologise for being short and sweet, but I have naughty children to contend with in a minute.

    Best,

    Marcus
     
  18. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Hi Steve,

    In haste: yes, I do have Peter's book, several of the examples I own to all the WRC Regiments are displayed in it.

    The adopted Trial Pattern badge is die stamped with a slider; I'll send you an image tomorrow.

    Possibly your example is an unfinished or very worn OSD badge, they tend to have a copper tinge to them in that state, does it have east - west lugs?

    Best,

    Marcus

    PS Acknowledged regarding PM and thank you.
     
  19. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Marcus

    The badge appears to be off a Gaunt die (tell tales related to the detail on the orb etc: it was Peter who told me how to differentiate between Gaunt and Firmin!). Definitely not a 'well-worn' badge as there are no traces of other colours etc. Die cast with east-west lugs. The lugs are subtly different with one being the usual 'round' and the other being very slightly 'flattened' as if it's supposed to be that way.

    I've got quite a number of 24L badges, some 'genuine period' with various degrees of provenance, some knowingly bought as 'restrikes/fakes' (don't ask me why: there's something mesmerising about the crossed Lances etc!) and some in the 'not sure either way' category. The one we are discussing falls into the latter category. Caught my eye because of the very light colour but with 'authoritative' feel about it.
     
  20. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I don't think he was out in the Middle East in the 1930's - certainly his war records didn't show any evidence of that - though he was in the army during those years and might have associated with many that were. There was some very vague "hinted" association during his time in the army in the 30's with T.E.Lawrence back in distant "family lore" - as he (Ben) was in Bovington I think for some time.

    T. E. Lawrence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I think he (Ben) was even in the area of Bovington around the time of Lawrence's death.

    There is definitely some lettering on the back of one of the cuff-links - and I've looked a few times now very carefully to try to see what is there - but it is so incredibly faded that I can't make anything much out - it does look rather like letter followed by a dot and " ~ PITY " though the P shape is half faded out the "ITY" bit is pretty clear. It's definitely "half" of something - though no idea of what. Possibly a maker's mark or a brief motto of a sort.

    Nan wore the officers collar / sweetheart badge long after the war (and after the 24th L were long gone) and from my memory it was an early issue (not something from after the 24th L were disbanded) - and he joined the 24th L pretty very near to their inception.

    As regards the letter mentioning all this (again from memory) I think this one was unfortunately undated on the letter itself - but slipped into an envelope (hopefully still the right envelope after all these years - but no way to know now absolutely for sure) that was postmarked (albeit faded) some time around the early war years - I had a quick glance through "None Had Lances" but I don't know for sure when these officers collars were first issued to the officers, as if I ever read more about it I've forgotten that now!


    He seemed to be quite friendly with some of the officers - and there is a picture of him in NHL -

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016

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