Tankies from uniform?

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Ramiles, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Hi RM,

    Thanks for that. It was a long shot really, but during the early 1930s the RTC had a contingent of armoured cars in Egypt (geographically North Africa perhaps being more apt in a sense), but I'm not overly conversant with RTC/RTR history; however, where there are troops garrisoned in other countries there's always a local cottage industry that will make, mend or sell you anything. We had the same prevalent market in the Balkans in the 1990s.

    As already mentioned the RTC became the RTR in 1939, so such an item could have been constructed at almost anytime prior? As to where and exactly when is another matter of course, and it could have been knocked up in a workshop on camp for an occasion from the lads even, or a multitude of other reasons...? But certainly not an official or issued item.

    Well, on the bright side, I think we have a likely candidate for the original manufacturer of the marked button: PITT & Co • 31. MADDOX St LONDON. W

    Someone far more savvy in the military button category would be able to discern the obverse engraving, as the only RTC buttons I've ever really noticed are of the convex style - I frankly only ever pay heed to WRC buttons.

    I've edited one of your pictures (I hope you don't mind) to compare with the reverse of a 22D by the same maker, I'm on my phone, so it's not exactly a very good attempt.

    Best,

    Marcus
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Oh dear! I don't think the above comparison is very clear.

    Anyway, here's another 22D button that shows the makers details in better definition - it's s larger button so the placement of the address differs.
     

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    Ramiles likes this.
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    You have a very fine eye Marcus!

    It is clearly "PITT" and not "PITY" ;) - I even noticed on here: http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/pages/buttonsntoz.html

    ...that they were eventually "Bought by J R Gaunt of London just before Gaunt was taken over by the Birmingham Mint" :) - albeit as "late" as 1973.

    The "certainly not an official or issued item" gives me a far better context as to what they were.

    Many thanks for all your great efforts!

    All the best,

    Rm.

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29452]
     
  4. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Does your die cast example by any chance resemble this one, Steve? This is from a Gaunt die with a faultless obverse, yet the reverse I have my reservations about. I deem my example "unfinished" due to the lack of the dark "bronze" finish and there are indeed the "finished" article out there too. In fact, one sold recently on eBay for over £100; so perhaps my stance is incorrect?

    Anyway, I too, like to have an inventory of the dubious, fake and restrikes - I still purchase the odd one from eBay to keep track of what some unscrupulous individuals are up to!

    Best,

    Marcus
     

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  5. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Marcus

    Subject to the fact that, with die cast items, there is always minor variation due to manufacturing tolerances, I would say 'my' badge is off the very same die as 'your' badge. The colour appears similar and there are many similar 'die cast blemishes' on the reverse side. I also have a 'proper' dark bronze version that is practically identical complete with the reverse-side blemishes in the same locations etc. It would therefore appear that the three badges are off the same die. Do we therefore assume at this stage that our lighter colour badges didn't quite make it to the final production stage and are therefore effectively 'incomplete/unfinished'.....?
     
  6. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Hi Steve,

    I couldn't say with any degree of certainty that these exact badges were manufactured in the desired period or not. Whilst the obverse appeals to me, I'm personally in two minds about the reverse.

    If your "finished" badge matches our light coloured examples, do you know of the badges history, at all?

    In the past, I've have some exchange and discussion concerning these examples with a knowledgeable collector (I do trust his opinion), who is perhaps more of the inclination they're okay. And there's certainly founded logic to his reasoning; however, conversely, I too, can broaden the debate regarding these versions. So, call it supposition, visceral or even ineptitude on my part, but I do struggle to accept these as period, at this very moment in time.

    That is, until perhaps the advent of a premise based link to these, so for now the badge I own is in the dubious box.

    Plus, as a collector I'm not averse to variations or differences, especially within the realms of cavalry and yeomanry officers badges.

    Below: these two OSD examples are my preference, opposed to the "unfinished" pattern.

    Best,

    Marcus
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I was meaning to ask how many of these...

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28007]

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28006]

    It is thought were actually ever made? And whether or not there are any "questionables" of these that have passed anyone's view over the years?

    Sadly I don't think that they have an example image posted here yet: 24th Lancers Badges

    And much of the forum there at the moment (???) is seeming to give pages that (for me at least!) say this:

    The British Military Badge Forum

    Database error The database has encountered a problem. Please try the following:
    • Load the page again by clicking the Refresh button in your web browser.
    • Open the www.britishbadgeforum.com home page, then try to open another page.
    • Click the Back button to try another link.
    The www.britishbadgeforum.com forum technical staff have been notified of the error, though you may contact them if the problem persists.
    We apologise for any inconvenience.

    Family lore (incorrect (corrected by SDP :) a while back) "had" it that these were "sweetheart" broaches that were never "actually" made - I only learnt about a year ago that they were (actually) worn by the officers in the 24th L.

    I assume that the officers and their families have mostly kept hold of theirs now over the years - some might have even forgotten :( what they actually were/are - albeit some might even be on display (now) in (a) museum(s) ?! :) -

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  8. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Hi Rm,

    Gilt & Enamel:

    The head-dress badge was re-struck - for the collectors market - by J.R. Gaunt in the 1970s, but this version was actually die stamped unlike the period examples that were die cast badges.

    That said, the die cast example - above - that Steve and I both own can be found inlaid with enamel too, and as already intimated it's not a badge I'm personally comfortable in believing is period - I just don't know...?

    As to the collars, I've never seen or heard of a contemporary attempt in reproducing the No.1 Dress collar to date, but the probability is such that they may exist in a form. There were at least two different companies in the 1970s and 1980s that manufactured the white-metal, die stamped 24L ORs collars - although I have yet to encounter one of these badges. And the officers' silver content badges have also been reproduced in attempts via crude casting methods mostly.

    In terms of production quantities, actual order numbers and distribution to approved stockists (outfitters), I couldn't honestly guess, but a good question! With regard to Gaunt's WRC records concerning "production" matters, etc, these were all lost thanks to the blasted Luftwaffe; I, like Peter Seaman, have received nothing forthcoming from attempted enquiries along such lines, and I'm sure due to my persistence that by now my e mail address is on their spam list.

    The Brit Forum is up and running again. I can't recall if they display the obverse of a collar, but there are several in collections that I know of, or have seen. And as I say, they're pretty damn scarce and very desirable collars; yours is wonderfully unique with the letter provenance and within context historically significant, in my opinion.

    Best,

    Marcus
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Was glad to see that the "Brit Forum" was "back" :) - had me worried there for a heartbeat!

    I may be being a bit dense but I was looking for a page similar to the 24th L one for the SRY but couldn't seem to find one.

    British Cavalry Badges 1896 - date

    I assume it is something to do with the Yeomanry status of the SRY and my just not knowing where to look / what is the right place.

    Albeit they have a 9th L one there: 9th (Queen's Royal) Lancers Badges

    Harking back to the pic at:

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29452]

    And...

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29456]

    And the T.E.Lawrence thing...

    T.E.Lawrence motorcycle Dorset picture - Google Search

    Gd. I think used to get people marking on the "similarity" between his look back then...

    https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?img...vDNAhWGLsAKHepyDP0QMwhhKDcwNw&iact=mrc&uact=8

    Something about the chin maybe perhaps?! :) ;)

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  10. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    RM,
    I can't see the SRY page either. Just plenty Hussars, Dragoons and lancers but there are several blanks and the link I followed from the home page isn't very detailed. Maybe it's just a case of someone posting them? Although to me seems odd that they are not already there surely someone posted them already maybe worth asking on a thread on the site?

    Regards Shaun
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I was looking at this: Gaunt London Military Officers Button XXIV LANCERS 24th Lancers

    Gaunt-London-Military-Officers-Button-XXIV-LANCERS-24th-Lancers


    And then noticed - by chance - in the associated pics bit beneath it the following:


    And...


    That are so closely reminiscent of:

    ...as to be almost uncanny. The page for them (the "Nautical-Buttons") seems to come via ebay in some way and they have been described as: "
    Vintage-Gaunt-London-Nautical-Buttons-PR-Cufflinks-Tall-Masted-SHIP" - albeit I sadly wasn't able to track down (yet) a view of what was on the front.
     
  12. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    I think this might be the thread for this. If anyone's got (quite) a few quid burning a hole in their pockets and like 24th lancers collar badges there's a lovely set of 7 coming up for auction on the-salesroom.com this Wednesday.
    Sadly most of my money burnt through my pockets last weekend.
     
  13. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    There are two I'd like, but not the whole auction lot. Are you still going to have a dabble?

    However, I did aquire this one recently though: a second 24L officers embroidered beret/coloured field service cap badge.
     

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  14. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    The two bullion examples in my collection.
     

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  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  16. Marcus H

    Marcus H Active Member

    Hi TD,

    Yeah - I just wonder too, eh!

    You'd be fortunate to get a single ORs pattern for £60, or indeed less.

    Best,

    Marcus
     
  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I noticed the note on there.. that...

    Notes: Colin Churchill Military Badge and Insignia Collection Part 7

    The Colin Churchill Collection of British Regimental Collar Badges, Headdress Badges & Cloth Insignia | C&T Auctions

    "Colin Churchill is widely recognised as a leading authority on British Collar Badges. He also has one of the largest collections of British cloth insignia including shoulder titles and formation signs. He started collecting in the 1970’s and has subsequently amassed one of the finest collections in the UK.

    Having developed an interest and in-depth knowledge in the subject, in 1986 he co-authored with Ray Westlake the beginner’s guide to collar badges, “British Army Collar Badges 1881 to the present”.

    This book was very well received and having realised there was an appetite for a more comprehensive study, he went on to write what is now generally accepted as the standard reference work on the subject, “History of the British Army Infantry Collar Badge”, in 2001, which included over 2000 actual-size identifier photographs and line drawings covering some 800 units. The book covers the topic in exhaustive detail, containing both detailed descriptions and variations of each badge worn, with dates when it was worn and on which uniform; mention of metals and also reasons why a particular design was chosen, with explanations of battle honours and mottoes.

    Having been born in Dorchester and living there during the war, he developed a keen interest in the Dorset regiment and is recognised as owning the most comprehensive collection of Dorset Collar Badges and Formation Signs and went onto write the book, “Dorchester verus Hitler: a County Town goes to war”, in 2006.

    He has now decided to sell his collection, this will be sold in stages over the next 18 – 24 months, with the first offering in our Militaria auction on 6th May 2015. The offerings will be a mixture of headdress badges, collar badges and cloth insignia.


    Below are highlights from Part 1 of this collection being sold on 6th May 2015"

    So...
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  18. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Ps. Didn't seem sensible to go back now and "fix" the title to this thread, so rather than that, I've switched streams here to talk about 24th Lancers related insignia and people's personal 24th L collections (and potential wish lists!) at...

    24th Lancer related insignia, personal collections etc...

    So people know now better, from the newer title, what's being (gone on to be) discussed. :)

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  19. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Hi Marcus yes I'm still going to add my grain of sand to the auction just to say I tried. The good thing is I've got my limit so won't do anything silly and I know your probably right with your estimate on a decent price so I'll bare that in mind. It's only just gone payday as well which is handy but I do wish last weekend wasn't so expensive
     
  20. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    OK so when it says lot 343 it does actually mean there's 342 before they get to the one I'm interested in. This could be a problem however next time I'll know (because I'll read the rules)
     

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