Tanks with 6-Pounder in 21 Army Group

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by TTH, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Well spotted. A tank with no gun offered better protection than a carrier or a half track.

    The short answer is " Driver reverse, right hand down and go like ******! " according to Gunner Chick Bullen of 342 Bty about his experiences in Lingevres when his BC was supporting the 9th DLI on 13 June 1944. They escaped with a dent in the side of the Sherman from a panther's 75mm and managed to hide from another behind a hedge enough for a Firefly to K/O the Panther following them. (Account in Panzers in Normandy then and now. also quoted in Kiln D Day-Arhem with the D Day Gunners")

    However this is what can happen if it goes wrong.
    [​IMG]g]


    Most people regard Michael Wittman as the hero of this story, but my sympathy is with Major Wells BC K Battery RHA and Captain Victory the FOO in the following Cromwell. Here is what one of the survivors wrote.

    “There was a bloody loud bang and Major Wells said ‘Get out!’ He went out first and fell on some railings next to the road – I never saw him again – then Gnr Norman went out and was killed by a burst of machine-gun fire – he was one of our desert veterans. I went next and ran straight up the street opposite the tank. At the junction at the end I turned right and met another tank, which offered me a lift. ‘Where are you going?’ I asked. ‘To get that Tiger’ they replied, to which I answered ‘No thanks’, and set off in the opposite direction. I kept running and the next thing I knew I was back at the gun position; heaven knows how I got there, but the Battery Captain said ‘Hello Jones, we were about to post you as missing in action.’ I’ve no idea what happened to the Ack and driver.”Major Wells"

    Major wells seems to have survived, Gunner Norman is commemorated on the Bayeux memorial
     
  2. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    I'm slightly confused by this question because as far as I know Churchills with 6-pounders were used in Normandy as one per troop to give some kind of improved anti-tank capability. Are you using the word "tanks" to only mean tanks used by the armoured divisions?

    As I understand it, Valentine X's and XI's were used as command tanks for Archer anti-tank squadrons from late 1944 onwards but not in Normandy. There was no such thing as a dedicated Centaur OP tank, but some 6 pounder-armed Centaurs were used as OP tanks in the UK prior to D-Day, although photographs I have seen appear to suggest they were unarmoured.

    I don't think any 6 pounder tanks were used by the armoured divisions in Normandy. One of the complaints crews from 2nd Northants Yeomanry made against the Centaur was that it couldn't climb inclines as well as their previous Crusaders, though it left the M3 Stuarts that they had to make their troop numbers up with far behind.
     
  3. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Checking the details of the individual brigades it seems that the policy varied. 34rd Tank Brigade took 22 x 6 Pdr equipped Mk III tanks per regiment - in order to provide some tanks capable of firing 6 Pdr DS

    The 31 Tank Brigade only took Mk VII with 75 mm guns. Source "History of 34 Armoured Brigade " 1945
    http://www.royaltankregiment.com/9_RTR/History%20of%2034%20Armd%20Bde.htm
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Sheldrake

    Here we go again with the difficulty of recognising the difference of a Tank Bde and an Armoured bde…..the Tank bde was essentially an assault unit with heavy Tanks supporting closely an

    Infantry bde..whereas the Armoured units were essentially lighter - faster pursuit type of Tanks which passed through the defences hole made by the Tank bdes which allegedly created havoc with

    the enemy……all Tank bdes became Armoured close to the end on the advent of "Battle" Tanks such as Comet - Challenger et al and to-day we have Main Battle Tanks - and Armoured

    reconnaisance Units…

    Cheers
     
  5. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Been trying to find this over the weekend... no luck yet. I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine it.
     
  6. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    Number of 6 pounder Churchills in Normandy increased with build up of units ashore.

    In order deployment in Normandy from 21 AG tank states June- July 1944:

    31st TB ...45 tanks
    34th TB .... 66
    6th Guards TB ... 51

    31st TB only had two regiments effectively 7th and 9th RTR as other regiment was 141st RAC with AVRES, Crocodiles, Flails etc which were parcelled out as required to support other units.

    Idler - please see Buckley p156

    Cheers
     
    Jen'sHusband likes this.
  7. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Mea culpa - over the loose terminology. Now amended. However, I am in good company as the author of the contemporary History of the 34 Armoured Brigade who has referred to it as 34 Armoured Brigade even though describing it as forming a Tank brigade.

    There is an inconsistency between the figures quoted by pack 75 and the statements in the History of 34 Armd Bde that the two units joining from 31 Tk Bde were all 75mm armed.
     
  8. Bernard85

    Bernard85 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    good day Sheldrake.27th,oct,09:35am,#21re:tanks with 6pounder in21 army group.thank you for your informative reply.have a good day.regards bernasrd85
     
  9. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    Sheldrake

    The figures for 6 pounder come from WO 205/636 and 637 daily tank states which are very specific about tank types and armament.
    As per previous post VIII corp history also refers to waiting for new SABOT ammunition for Epsom for 31st tank brigade.

    Cheers
     
  10. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Interesting.

    "The History of 34 Armd Bde" was written the following year and refers to the re-organisation, which took place in August 44. Maybe either 1) the author of "History" was simply wrong or 2) By Aug 1944 these units had changed their minds about the value of 6 Pdrs.

    Do you have the tank states for Sep and Oct for 34 Tk bde?
     
  11. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    Or 3) they were all knocked out :)

    Sorry I don't have tank states for Sept or Oct.
    Either of your suggestions could be correct. It would not be first time a regimental history has been wrong and by July 1944 emphasis was certainly on 17 pounders in tanks, towed or in self propelled vehicles.

    I skimmed through Peter Beale's Tank Tracks to see if he referred to number of 6 pounders but did not find anything.
    My copies WDs for 7 and 9 RTR are only June to Aug and they do not mention anything but if WD was to record anything then it would likely to be April or May.
     

Share This Page