The 8th Battalion Sherwood Foresters in Norway April 1940

Hi Pete,

sorry for late reply, have been working on the wild (west) side of Australia for 5 weeks.
I am pretty sure that Ive hear my Dad mention a 'Sam Wood',..although the photo didnt have any other info.
written on it,..and my memory doesnt improve with time LOL!
Very interested in the 'medal' situation, please keep me informed with that.

 

Good morning Clive and Pete,

I have had a reply from the MOD Medal Section in the SPVA who have said "Unfortunately we do not have any contact details concerning the issue of Norwegian medals. We can only advise you to contact the Norwegian Embassy who may be able to advise you further".

I have already done this by E mail but have had no reply so will write a letter with a formal request for the medal containing a copy of my father's Army Service Records which shows he was posted to the "North West Expeditionary Force" from 17 April to 24 April (when he was captured). They should have the courtesy to reply to a letter.

Will keep you informed of progress.

Steve

 

Hello Steve and Clive!

Thanks for your comment on my father, Clive - especially since you may have heard of him from your Dad.

Good of the Medal Section to reply, Steve. We can only hope that the Norwegian Embassy extends the same courtesy. I am looking at the possibility of contacting some other appropriate address actually in Norway or even the UK where entitlement can be confirmed or otherwise.

 

Steve,

Thanks, also, for the email sent before I went away, with the contact emails etc. I have only just discovered it in the spam folder.

I have found another possible route via the Norwegian Forsvaret Decorating Council (from an ex-pat blog) where, apparently, all claims are sent. I will give them a try this evening.

 

I have been meaning for some time to try to write down some of Dads experiences as a P.O.W. as told to me,..so with the aid of a bottle of good red wine, here goes...


MEMOIRS OF A P.O.W.

Dad was always a realist, and didn't over-glamorise, prefering to tell it 'warts and all'. I will endevour to do the same.

He told about being violently sea-sick, as were most of them, aboard the HMS ARETHUSA (thanks Steve), he said they were 'Zig-zagging constantly to avoid U-boat detection', landed feeling pretty wretched I imagine.

Dad didn't talk much about the battle at Tretten, he said they were 'Completely out-manned, out-gunned, with inadequate supplies'. Dad used to laugh when returning from the British Legion nights, he said 'the battle became more heroic every year,..but in truth, we were under intense fire (Dad seemed to think it was machine-gun fire), and running like rabbits looking for a ditch, a hedge, a depression in the ground,..anything just to get out of the line-of-fire'.
I think he saw a lot of people die that day.

Dad was shot in the thigh, he used to joke that you knew which way they were running,..th larger exit wound being to the front of the thigh! He was well treated at Lillehammer hospital, before being transported to a prison camp later. Like Steve's Dad,.he was also listed as 'M.I.A...believed killed' for a good while. we have it on record that Dads original P.O.W. no. was 286, but after several escape attempts he was given the no. 96358.

Food seemed to be the main problem for the early P.O.W.s,..before the Red-Cross deliveries became effective, while being reasonaly well treated, they were malnurished, Dad suffered with Beri beri at one time. He told me that when the Red-Cross started, they were getting an over supply of coffee, and an under supply of food. They used to swap coffee with the German guards, by throwing it over the wire fence, and getting food thrown back. They were down on coffee one day, so they filled a tin with earth, did the swap, and disappeared. A week or so later they tried another 'swap', the guards let off a volley of shots over their heads!!
He used to tell me proudly about how they used to make a sort of mechanical hand held 'fan' out of food cans, bent and twisted together,..which they would use to light, or re-light, their campstove fires in the cold mornings. I always meant to do a drawing of this contraption, but lost the opportunity. He used to tell me about using the brown paper and cardboard from old red-cross parcels to line the inside of his boots, socks, trousers, to try to keep warm.

He mentioned 'marching across a bridge, which only had one young German guard,(I dont think this was Tretten, I think it was one of the forced prisoner marches from or to Krems, but not sure) as the body of men walked across, there were some ribald comments and whistles, but the guard was frozen motionless to the spot!

I did say 'warts and all'....
Dad told me about one camp that was controlled by a 'gang', mainly Brits, some who had a razor blade taped to a finger, and would 'mark' the face of anyone who did not part with some of their rations. Dad, being ginger-haired, and of a rebellious nature, quickly got on the wrong side of this gang, and had to resort to wearing an improvised 'balaclava' for a couple of months!
There's a dark side to human nature I guess!

Dad had several escapes, but was recaptured, in one of these attempts, he was hit in the face with a guards gun butt, losing him a few teeth in the process. He also met a French resistance fighter who helped him, Dad referred to him as 'the bravest man I ever met',..and he met a few.

I asked him about the end of the war, he said that they knew the war was coming to a end, they awoke one morning, the guards and vehicles were gone,the gates unlocked and swinging open. When Dad returned to Mansfield, there was a massive banner at the end of Gladstone street saying "Welcome home Ginner" ('ginner' meant ginger) Sadly, during the incarsuration, his Mother and only brother had died. But, as in all good films, his girl (my Mother) was waiting for him.

It took quite a while for Dad to normalise after the war, he used to hate the sound of the wind blowing through telegraph wires, didn't like naked (without shades) light bulbs as it reminded him of the p.o.w. camps. Mum said he also hade difficulty sleeping in a normal bed, she would often find him asleep on the floor.(not alcohol induced!)
Im pleased I managed to get that all down, its been theraputic for me,..and me wines all finished!

Regards,
Clive

 

Gents,

Clive,

Excellent account which brought to mind some of the things Dad told us about. I just wish I had got him to write about his experiences in Norway.

Whatever they had to fight with, the Germans had bigger and better. All the aircraft he saw were Luftwaffe, including a scout plane (Fiesler Storch?) stuck up a tree. Helping themselves to some hotel bar stock in Lillehammer or Dombas until the irate Norwegian owner turned up! While they were being mortared, an eighteen year old lad was trying to get underneath him. Firing at Germans in a railway van. A Foresters officer in a wagon during the retreat, completely incapacitated by shock and fatigue. "He was a good officer but it was too much for him". Dad and a colleague attempted to take a short cut during the shambolic retreat but were ordered back onto the road which was being shelled. The officer then disappeared so they took it anyhow.

I think Dad was quite moved when we visited the Crich Memorial about 25 years ago. The caretaker brought out a book from his cottage and Dad could clearly recall the names of those he had known.

Hoping for a reply from the Forsvaret Decorating Council soon.

 

Chaps,

Encouraging news! A prompt reply to my enquiry has just been received from Lt Col Bjornar Stivag of the Norwegian Defence Staff Veteran Affairs who politely informed me that his team are now looking into the matter!

Here's hoping!

 

Hi Pete,

sounds encouraging, fingers crossed.

regards,
Clive

 

Hi Pete and Clive,

Sorry for late reply but have just returned from a trip to Bavaria to see Stalag 383 where Dad spent the last two years of his war. Encouraging news from Lt Col Stivag, will wait with baited breath.

Pete, do you think it is still worth me writing to the embassy or is your route the more appropriate?

Regards

Steve

PS Will write something down about Dad's time in Norway soon.

 

Hello Steve,

What an interesting trip you must have had! I was thinking of going over that way myself in the autumn - to Berchtesgaden for a bit of walking and WWII interest.

It seems that all veterans medal claims go to Col Stivag's department so I reckon any enquiry to the Norwegian Embassy would be directed there, anyway....eventually! I got that address quite by accident when visiting an ex-pat blog. The next-of-kin of a Norwegian chap who had been living in Scotland are keen to get his medals. An helpful chap supplied them with an email address which I will pass on to you and Clive.

My experience of claiming medals includes having to wait for several weeks for a request for recipient documents and related information. It could be a while yet.

 

Hello Steve and Clive,

More fuel to the fire...

US 99th Batt., Norway vets of Norwegian origin received the Deltagermedalgen/Participation Medal recently.

Thanks for your reply email, Steve. I am still going through it all. Amazing revelations!

If this link doesn't work, similar wording in Google should bring it up.

http://www.shfwire.com/world-war-ii-vets-who-liberated-norway-honored-embassy

 

Morning Pete and Steve,

Many thanks for email link Pete,
I will eagerly follow it up from this end.

Sounds like a good trip Steve, I am looking some time in the near future,
to do something very similar, would love to go to 'Upper-Silesia' on the
Czech/Poland border, where Dad finished up.

Anybody hear from 'Dadbilly' lately?

Regards,
Clive

 

My pleasure, Clive!

Steve,

A follow-up on Brigadier Harold de Riemer Morgan has shown that he received his DSO in WW1; London Gazette 16/9/18 when Act/Major, although he was temp Lt/Colonel before the end.

Granted Actg., rank of Maj.General sometime in WW2.

 

Hi Peter, a great piece of research showing that H de R Morgan was a very experienced officer. Quite an achievement rising from Lt to A/Lt Col in the Great War, I believe most subalterns didn't last too long in that hell. I wonder if he commanded a battalion whilst an A/Lt Col.

It must have been Brig Morgan who recommended his two battalion commanders for their DSOs whilst in Norway - not all bad then! I wonder if he was a regular officer when commanding the brigade or a territorial like the rest of his officers in the brigade?

I tried for some time whilst at the National Archives to find the DSO recommends for Lt Cols Ford (8SF) and German (5 Leics) but not a thing. The only thing that came up for the CO of the 8th was an OBE recommend for Lt Col Nicholson in 1959. If you see posts 40-42 above, Diane found the recommend.

As already posted, there is a coincidence there. John Erskine Nicholson as an A/Captain in the Foresters deployed to Norway as the Brigade Transport Officer. It was probably a non job in Norway as all of the transport was sunk on the way over. He must have been dad's boss as he signed the last field payment in dad's pay book (£1)on 16 April, the day they were boarding their ships to sail to Norway. I don't suppose that came in handy at Tretten or his POW camps!

I was looking through dad's old papers and found a letter dated 15 April 1957 from a Lt Col Nicholson to dad congratulating him on his forthcoming mayor making. What really caught my eye was that the army protocol was still there. Not Dear Mr Foster or Dear Fred but Dear Foster!! The rank system never goes away.




After I had finished all of my research at the national Archives, I found quite a lot of interesting material at the Imperial War Museum. They have all of Lt Col Ford's letters and personal memoires, I suppose his widow sent them there after he died. Whilst a POW he wrote to the NOK of every officer and quite a few NCOs in the battalion telling them what their husband/son had done in Norway. I found it very moving that he bothered to do that. He was repatriated half way through the war due to poor health.

Regards

Steve

 

Hello Steve,

A fascinating pastime is this military research. Difficult not to be drawn off in several directions at once! I could spend a great deal of time at the IWM.

Lt Col Morgan did in fact command a battalion but relinquished the command before the war's end, thereby reverting to the rank of Actg. Major.

You are perfectly correct about the rank system. I am in a RAF association and at the bi-annual meetings it is always glaringly obvious that there is deference to the rankings of yesteryear!

 

Hello Steve,

While trawling around for Lt Col T A Ford links I came across this interesting page;

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/MESSAGE+IN+A+BIBLE+MYSTERY.-a0314674465

 

Hello Steve,

DSO, London Gazette, 11Oct1945, page 5006. Lt Col Guy Johnson German, No:2361, Leicestershire Regt.(Stafford).

 

Hello Pete,

In reply to your first post above, Private D Hibert may have been a member of the 8th Foresters or 5th Leicesters. The book "First Contact", the history of the 8th Foresters in Norway, does not name him in either the KIA or POW listings, so if he was a Forester, he made it back to UK. I don't have too much information about the 5th Leicesters I am afraid. If he did make it home, I suppose it is very unlikely he is still alive. Unusual a Welshman was part of a midlands TA unit, I thought they always recruited locally.

Good job with finding Lt Col German's page in the London Gazette. Oct 1945 is quite late to be awarded a medal for an action in early 1940; I don't know if the routine was to wait until POWs were repatriated before formalising the award so he could be presented with it at the palace. Like Lt Col Ford, he was captured, a couple of days after the battle at Tretten I think, in one of the holding actions on the retreat North.

Will look up the page in the gazette. I guess Col Ford's DSO will be there somewhere, but as he was repatriated mid way through the war, it may have been gazetted earlier than Col German's.

Regards

Steve

 

Hello Steve,

Please peruse this auction Lot No:452 in respect of Lt Col Ford!

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ukauctioneers/pdf_catalogues/478_no_images.pdf