The attacks on Cristot (10th to 17th June 1944)

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Ramiles, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    The following passage from the as yet unpublished Regimental History of the Royual Artillery in the Normandy campaign has the following to say about the 49 Div attack on 16th June.



    I'd be very grateful if you could tell me 1) Which unit did Private Rex Flowers serve in. 2) Which cruisers fired on the fireplan?

    The 146 Brigade attack should be put in context. The History of the 12 SS Division states that the recce battalion of the 12 SS abandoned Christot during the night 15-16 June after laying mines.
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    He 's listed in Bibliography page 227 of Delaforce's The Polar Bears.
    Flower, Horace Rex, 'An Infantryman's Saga', 1/4th Battalion KOYLI
     
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  4. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Thank you
     
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Got to say Cristot seems to be a fairly popular topic for wargamers:

    Not sure quite what to make of these "accounts" though “apparently” according to…

    http://www.gmtgames.com/opdauntless/Cristotsample011511.pdf
    …this occurred on the 16th June: The attack from Le Haut d'Audrieu took place on a 500 yard wide front, with two companies up and the other two in reserve. 'A' and 'B' Companies led the attack, which kicked off at noon, with support from the 24L tanks. One tank troop supported each forward infantry company, with the third tank troop behind. The infantry followed the creeping barrage and first encountered resistance about 500 yards from Cristot. The KOYLI fought their way into the village and found it a shambles. Opposing them were about 400 infantrymen of the 26th SS Panzergrenadier Regiment, 12th SS Panzer Division. The German infantry had plenty of support from MGs and mortars, plus some self-propelled guns, a handful of panzers, and the “armored cars” (actually reconnaissance halftracks with 20mm guns) of 2nd Company, 12th SS Panzer Recon Group. By nightfall, Cristot had been captured; it was the KOYLI Battalion's first major victory in the campaign. The cost had been high — 66 dead in five days of fighting. The battalion managed to exploit as far as Le Hamel (south of Cristot). They were relieved the following morning by the 7th Duke of Wellington’s.

    (Le Hamel for example is east or north-east of Cristot. not south this might have been something of a confusion for the 102 hill though).

    http://www.fireandfury.com/scenarios/bloodhonourparcdeboislande.pdf

    Historical Outcome: The battle started late on June 17th and, once again, British artillery hammered hard into the German defensive positions. As the barrage moved forward, the tanks gradually started to pull ahead of the infantry who, in turn, were suffering increasingly from “snipers” who had survived the artillery onslaught. Stiffened by the follow-up rifle companies, eventually the woodland and Chateau were cleared. As night fell over the ruined Chateau and the shattered parkland, the armour withdrew leaving the 6DWR to consolidate their positions. But inexperience showed and preparation for the inevitable counter-attack was not as thorough as it should have been. Soon after dawn on the 18th, a fresh squadron from the 24th Lancers arrived in support. An increasing tempo of German artillery and mortar fire announced the arrival of the anticipated counter-attack. Fresh companies of Panzergrenadiers and Pioneers, supported by Panzer IV’s, moved up the slopes from Fontenay-le-Pesnel. Once again the woodland became a killing ground. The 6DWR Carrier Platoon was surrounded and “fought to the last man”. Large numbers fell back from the woods in disorder. The heart had been torn out of the 6DWR - they had lost over 250 men in their first battle. Losses for the Hitlerjugend were over 150 men – troops and tanks that they would struggle to replace. Parc de Boislande became a ghostly no-man’s land until re-occupied by the British on June 20th.

    - I'd like to assume that not too much has been "made up" as considerable research and effort appears to have been made there - don't want to pick it to pieces though as they are only "game" scenarios after all.

    If they are wrong in detail though they may cause confusion that's probably best avoided there.

    All the best,

    Rm.

    Ps. funny how one man's "accurate mortar fire" is another chap's "shambles" ;)
     
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Given that the blow on the 16th fell on positions abandoned the previous night The "Cristot scenario" looks like fantasy.

    The 6th DWR at the Parc de Boislande is the background for one of the great case studies of morale in battle. 6 DWR were unlucky.

    The story of their experience is here http://www.answers.com/topic/duke-of-wellington-s-regiment This was one of the stands in a battlefield study last year by one of our country Regiments. What followed was one of the most thought provoking discussions I have heard. It covered how much is too much combat for a unit? We covered Afghanistan as well as Normandy. Two observations stuck in my mind.

    #1 Lt Col Turner's famous letter has a major omission.The Sgts mess is not mentioned once. He wanted a bunch of officers, but the British army is run by two messes. 6DWR might have done better with strong WOs and NCOs.

    #2. This was a TA unit and may have been azllowed to go to the wall in a way that would not have been allowed to happen to a regular battalion. We were following the story of the units own antecedents, the regular battalion of one had a similar experience in mid July, losing 200 casualties in 48 hours. It seems to have been not used again for the rest of the Normandy campaign.

    This also exposes the limitations wargames. The really interesting questions are not tactics, but leadership.
     
    Tricky Dicky likes this.
  7. idler

    idler GeneralList

    A small snippet: The Essex Yeomanry history says that they (147 Fd Regt) supported the 6 GH attack on Cristot (11 June). The battle is only dealt with in summary: " The objective was extremely strongly held and though the tanks were able to "shoot in" our infantry, the position could not be consolidated."
     
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Right, now we are getting somewhere - but I read abandonned as empty of enemy troops - where it might be that a particular part of the opposing force had been 'convinced' of the wisdom of opting for a strategic withdrawal.

    In addition I'd favour working out where the new lines of control would have lain after such a force withdrawl - as they might have pulled back through a section of allied axis troops so relieving the immediate soft front and replacing it with a stiff hard rear. ;-)
     
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Idler!

    Has anyone a decent map of troop placements in this area for 10th, 11th, 16th June? I've begun to build up a suggested situation report but it would be great to get some details definitively confirmed - or is this just wishful thinking and a hiding to nothing - really trying to lift the fog of war.

    A specific detailed cut from:

    http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/maps/europe/zoomify138906.html

    Might work as a base map, and if units placements are surmised for at given times, they could be placed on there in a slide show showing events of a sort - as they occured.

    All best wishes,

    Rm

    I don't yet know what's impossible - but I am learning, honestly ;-)
     
  10. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    The context for the battle at Cristot should also be considered within the neighbouring actions on those dates. The Canadian operation at Le Mesnil Patry, which had a strikingly similar result, occurred barely 3 km away and was intended to be in direct support of the British 50th Division attack at Cristot. The QOR and 1st Hussars were badly mauled in the action.

    Battle for Le Mesnil-Patry

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Le_Mesnil-Patry
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Cannuck!

    By the way can I favour that we keep noting the dates of the action(s) and events referred to the Cristot posts, just a simple 11th or 16th might suffice. I'm loath to call them the 1st and 2nd battles in case someone pops up and says that they fought there on the 13th and we have to start calling the 13th engagement Cristot 1.5

    Many thanks it will be a great help,

    All best best,

    Rm
     
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Of course there's this: http://www.theobservationpost.com/blog/?p=132

    With a map of the units in the area (mostly to the west of Cristot) - you can just see the village on the right hand border of the map (about 15% of the way down the webpage there)

    I've had a chance to look at the war diary for the 24th Lancers now and apparently:

    "The 24th Lancer Regiment remained in positions defending the perimeter of Pt 103 during the day (11/6/1944) whilst ‘A’ Squadron supported an attack on Cristot, a village to the West of the position"

    They were involved in a lot of action between the 11th and the 16th and then on 16/6/1944...

    "While ‘A’ Squadron 24th Lancers continued to hold the perimeter at Pt 103, ‘C’ Sqn were detached to support the KOYLI in an attack on Cristot."

    & apparently....

    [SIZE=12.8000001907349px]" ‘C’ Squadron 24th Lances fired HE into the village and in particular at the church tower which it was thought might contain an OP"[/SIZE]

    (So if my granddad was there in C squadron he would probably have been a bit sad about that :( )
    There's a picture of the tower very nicely restored now though in this (Steve Mac's earlier link)

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/26610-cristot-1116th-june-1944/?hl=cristot :rolleyes:

    One of the odd things about Church steeples was how readily they were made use of for the purposes of war. (as OP's - observation points and by snipers)

    it's not for nothing that the Normans built their churches and church towers like castles and defensive towers though, a lot of a small place's wealth was locked up in them, and they were like the bunkers of their day, a place for the women and children to retreat. Still bit of a shame that they had to become targets for fire though :mad:

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  13. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    24L 'did' quite a few church steeples in Normandy. The one in Audrieu being one of particular note. Very sad of course. Interesting that the church in Cristot is still not totally rebuilt (steeple ok but the opposite end being left as is for many years).
     
  14. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    So nice front, but shame about the back. In the photo it looks perfect, and who said the camera never lies!

    I even wondered if the time on the clock was significant, but that could be very confusing to passers by - having a stopped clock - in a small village.

    At what sort of range could tank fire have done that with a Firefly or a regular Sherman - all I got from a "Search" ho!, ho! was that a Sherman has a range of 200 miles ( ;) ) and that the Israeli's once blew-up a tractor with a Sherman from 11km away. :P

    It would be my guess that if it were an HE shell it was more likely to have been by a regular Sherman? Fireflys with their AP rounds were more used for an anti-tank role?

    Anyone hazard a guess where the 24th L would choose to take such a shot from in the terrain in the map below? I think that they would probably have been closer than at a "maximum range" published for their guns (though I'd still be interested to know a standard effective range??) - or a link in a post below. But it's got to be less than 200miles or 11km. I think that there was some thought that below about 850 yrds (about 777m) was about the ideal ? But perhaps that's just a for a tank on tank shot, and maybe for a firefly against one of the more "regular" German tanks at that.

    The boxes in the map are 1km by 1km so the distances are really no distance at all. It was a close in sort of fight, where you couldn't always see the enemy and sometimes the enemy wasn't even there ;)

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28173]

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  15. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Further to my comment at Message No.16 regarding the tank/infantry cooperation...

    This is a note sent to 50th (Northumbrian) Division regarding the achievement of the 1st Bn Dorsetshire Regiment in its temporary and new role as motorised infantry supporting an armoured brigade. The 12th KRRC were the incumbant specialists, but they did not land in Normandy until late June 1944. The 1st Dorsets had been a first wave assault battalion on Gold Beach on D-Day.

    *
    The 8th Bn Durham Light Infantry, 151st Infantry Brigade, also 50 Div, were to later move forward on the right flank of this main column and the 6th Bn Green Howards, 69th Infantry Brigade, also 50 Div, onto the left; thereby, both, affording flank protection for the main column and consolidatiation of the bridgehead.

    The 8th DLI were a second wave assault battalion on Gold Beach on D-Day. The 6th Green Howards were also a first wave assault battalion on Gold Beach on D-Day (and won the only VC awarded on D-Day).
     
  16. Wessex_Warrior

    Wessex_Warrior Junior Member

    This is an excellent thread ! Concerning the church tower from "None had Lances Page 98" On 16th June The KOYLI advanced from Le Haut d'Audrieu on a 500 yard front with two companies up. One troop of tanks led each company. No real opposition met until 500 yards short of Cristot when some heavy mortar fire opened from the direction of the village. Observation was poor due to the smoke from the artillery barrage, ah but we sees a tower. C Squadron fired HE into the village and in particular at the church tower which it was thought might contain an Observation post (sounds familiar). So the damage was probably as a result of 14 tanks firing at 500 yards range. They might have got a few hits.
    As mentioned before the book Tilly Sur Seulles 1944 by Stephanie Jacquet published by Heimdal is brilliant even if half of it is in French. A superb account of the battle and the personalities from both sides. The coverage of the 4/7th Dragoon Guards is particularly good with troop photos and names taken at Heveningham Camp before D-Day.
    The title of Motorised Infantry for the 1st Dorsets is a bit rich since the only transport they had was bicycles! This probably explains why the tanks went so far ahead without infantry support a few days earlier.
     
  17. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Wonder how many 'overs' there were and where did they land? Ouch? The line of fire was directly towards the Canadians?

    Stephane has indeed written an excellent book by all accounts but it is, I understand, fully bilingual not 'half French half English'.

    I was fortunate to meet Stephane last year in Tilly sur Seulles. Very keen to keep the memories flowing etc
     
  18. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    *
    I always have found that funny, WW; but that is how it is recorded - 'Motor Battalion'.

    My understanding is that it was only 'A' Coy that used bicycles, as they were in the 'van' of the infantry - pun definitely intended!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  19. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Cristot 11 June:

    Googling 'robin hastings cristot' gets a hit on a chunk of Gold Beach: Inland from King, June 1944. The text, on a quick inspection, appears to be a combination of Brightly Shone the Dawn (same authors) and the Green Howards' regimental history. Critically, it includes a couple of sketch maps that are sorely missing from BSTD, which at least ties the action to the ground - thanks to CSM Hollis.

    The snag is that the 'battlefield tour' version has Hollis' sunken lane as the battalion's axis (the curved purple line), but the regimental history clearly states that the axis went straight through Les Hauts Vents. Not knowing the start line or the actual objectives doesn't help. What both accounts suggest is that 6GH were not actually attacking Cristot itself, instead moving past it to the real prize: Pt 102.

    The 6 GH war diary adds another contradictory detail, stating that the leading coys became pinned down around the cross-tracks at 866702. If you check it out on ramiles' map a couple of posts above, thats the area of the small wood NNE of Le Hauts Vents. That's some way short of the 'battlefield tour' location, though it could just refer to the initial engagements.

    Anyway, here's a copy of a 1947 airphoto (thanks IGN) overlaying the modern French 1:25000 map. Note that most of the orchards are gone now. For scale, Cristot is about 200m long.
     

    Attached Files:

    Ramiles likes this.
  20. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    June 11th, 1944

    Le Mesnil-Patry Summary and Maps

    The attack began in daylight, at 1430 on the 11th. With "B" Squadron of the Hussars leading, and men of "D" Company riding on the tanks, the force advanced only part way across the level ground between Norrey and Le Mesnil-Patry before encountering heavy mortar and machine gun fire. The infantry dismounted from their exposed positions on the back of the tanks and tried to move forward, and small parties of both tanks and infantry managed to make it into the town. However, enemy tanks and anti-tank guns came into action, and the Hussars ordered a withdrawal to their own start line. "B" Squadron, not receiving the order to withdraw, lost all but two tanks, all its officers, and all but three NCOs. "D" Company of the Queen's Own Rifles suffered 96 casualties (the battalion as a whole suffered 99, 55 being killed).
    The 2nd Battalion of the 12th SS Panzer Regiment was under the command of SS-Sturmbannführer Prinz, and his tanks had managed to intervene decisively. The 8th Company, under Hans Siegel, apparently moved into action on the initiative of their commander, being closest to the fighting, and scored many hits on the exposed Canadian tanks. The divisional Pionier (engineer) battalion also counter-attacked and took prisoners. In all, the 12th SS tanks managed to inflict the loss of 37 tanks, while the Hussars lost 80 troops, an unusually high proportion of them being killed. German losses were just four tanks (three from No. 8 Company and one from No. 9 Company) though personnel casualties were higher, totalling 150, including 48 dead and 11 missing.

    lemesnilpatrymap.png

    lemesnilpatrymap2.png
     

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