"The Battle for Monte Cassino"- Then and Now.

Discussion in 'Books, Films, TV, Radio' started by Scout Sniper, Apr 24, 2011.

  1. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Minden
    The XIII corps changed near the end of the Diadem operation - in the beginning it was Poles up at the Monastery then 4th Div - 6th Armoured - 78 div

    then 1st Cdn and 8th Indian…... at Agnani 1st Cdn dropped out 78th - 6AD- 1st CAB went off as XIII to US 5th army for the Trasimeno battles later 78th went

    off to Egypt- coming back for the Gothic along with 46th and 56th Divs

    Cheers
     
  2. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Thanks Frank we have talked about this before http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/38359-5th-canadian-armoured-division-in-italy/ around post 59. I Know that the Calgary regiment was into Aquino as early as the 16th I believe with the Buffs but as the morning fog cleared they were fired upon by the Panzerturns placed in the outskirts they lost 13 Shermans before they could retire with the infantry. next came the 1st Div attack on the 19th to test the water. then of course Opertation Chesterfield on the 23rd. in which the 1st div. breeched the line. This is where I loose track of what was going on in the 13th Corp front. The 1st CID foo's called in a William target on Aquino to supress fire coming from there into the 2nd CIB line of attack they were being shredded by SA fire, mortars, mines and Artillery. I have yet to study what was going on in the13 corp sector at the time.
    Granted this is likely a discussion for a different place.
    Matt
     
  3. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Matt.

    I have walked the ground of the 2 Cdn Inf Bde attack on 23 May 44 during Chesterfield and it is not difficult to appreciate the advantages that the Germans had in continuing to occupy Aquino. In addition, behind on their right, II (PO) Corps did not capture Piedmonte San Germano until 25 May 44 so the Germans could use the high position to bring down terrible artillery fire on to the advancing Canadians. It was a bloodbath.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Anyway back to the book.
    Mine arrived today Royal Mail 1st Class , posted 16th arrived 18th that is bloomin quick at this time of year.

    Had a quick look through it & am kicking myself for not buying it back in 2011 when it came out.

    I'll get back there one day - just not sure when that will be.
     
    gpo son likes this.
  5. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Thanks Owen I'm really interested now...I shall stay the course hence forward. I always err, to turn a light on battles of the colonials and thier British comrades often less mentioned.
    Matt
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    GPO's son

    You got that right - " and their British comrades often less mentioned "…..such as the British 25th Tank Bde " who also suffered in the bloodbath of Diadem as the NIH lost 14 Tanks

    in the first half hour and the 51st RTR who also 14 Tanks in the second half hour leaving 70 dead and about the same wounded - OR the 306 casualties at the Gothic line by

    the British 21st Tank bde in the long Canadian Month of Hell- both bdes were part of the Cdn Corps but as you state - seldom mentioned…

    Cheers
     
  7. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Tom
    Also almost never mentioned is that, the Ontario Tank Regiment (1st CAB) lost 13 tanks (it appears that they had 1 killed not sure on the wounded) with the 78th division on the 19th as they hoped bounce the Hitler line early. Finding out as morning the fog lifted that the line was held in strength. Stacey, The Canadian Army 1939-1945 "This was a costly failure, the Ontarios losing 13 tanks and having almost every other tank hit." Vokes pointed out in the aftermath "Everything before the Hitler line was childs play".
    Matt
     
  8. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Owen.

    When you decide to go back to Cassino, give me a shout.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Something I've noticed which as a tad disappointing is that often the wrong month is given in the text.
    Just noticed one page (p73) about the failed US river crossings in January it says 'March' twice on the same page. :(
    The caption for the photo on front cover of the book has Cassino failing in 'March' too.
    I've spotted a few others .
    Shame that.
     
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Who wrote the photo captions for this book?

    see page 95.
    Pfc Leo J Powers , Medal of Honor. After the war his body was returned to the United States to be buried in Holy Cross Cemetery , Butte Montana.

    No it wasn't cos he didn't die until 1967 - look at the photo of the headstone the caption is for!

    Also 'March' crops up again on page 125 in a photo caption when they mean FEBRUARY.

    Things like this are bugging me because if a few captions are wrong that I can spot- what else is that I can't ?

    But in saying that, I do like the pictures.
    The best bits of the book are the photos.
     
  11. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Don't think I'll buy the book now Owen :wink:
     
  12. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    One swallow does not make a Summer. I know a huge amount about the Cassino battles: they have been an obsession for the last 13 years, and, in my view, the authors have produced a first class document. I read lots of books and find faults in most of them when it comes to the minute details of Cassino. Covering a large canvas is always a challenge when up against single interest enthusiasts like me. I take my hat off to both authors for producing the book.

    FdeP
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    If ATB are going to charge forty odd quid for a book there shouldn't be any mistakes.
    Especially not silly ones like the ones I've high-lighted.
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Regards page 138.
    Just going to remind everyone where the 'Cavendish Road ' really got it's name from.
    The authors wouldnt have known this either as we only learnt of it in 2013.

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/11500-lt-col-hp-cavendish-dso-obe/?p=529565
     
    minden1759 likes this.
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Don't let my niggly points put anyone off buying the book.
    I wanted it to be 'perfect'.
    It is bloody good though & helping me understand the battles a lot better than I did.
     
  16. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    I read 'Ten Armies in Hell' by Peter Caddick-Adams last year and that is a much better example of poor research and appalling editing. The title alone is misleading - there were only two armies at Cassino: the British Eighth and the US Fifth.

    Peter Caddick-Adams is normally a good writer so I know not what he was thinking when he decided to tackle this subject.

    FdeP
     
  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Frank

    You can cut that two armies down a bit - IF we dare to look at the facts inasmuch as 5th Army participated in Battle ONE

    with the three French -North African divisions doing very well in almost cutting highway 6 - until the US 34th Div fell into
    trouble and Mark Clark hauled the French back to reinforce failure instead of success and thus that battle failed - the

    next two Battles were fought by the Kiwi's and 4th Indian - the last one - Diadem was fought by 8th Army in the Valley with

    the French and US 5th fighting(sic) in the undefended Arunici Mountains - then complaining that 8th Army was slow …?

    Cheers
     
    gpo son likes this.
  18. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Tom.

    You have lost me. Fifth Army had responsibility for the Cassino front until Eighth Army arrived in prep for the Fourth Battle when they moved down to the coast. That makes two Armies at Cassino.

    FdeP
     
  19. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Frank

    Easily done I guess - however I was only trying to point out that 0NE of the two armies involved in Diadem - didn't do

    a helluva lot of fighting as the Urenci Mountains were virtually undefended and so the French four divisions by that time

    were able to run past them- go ahead of 8th Army fighting against highly defended both defence lines in the valley - then

    Juin and Clark had the temerity to complain that we were too slow…as I often have said- it's much easier to run through an

    open door than it is to try to move double barred and locked doors which was the case in the valley - which was the task of

    8th Army and the main reason for moving into the valley- THAT was where the so called "Blood Bath" took place mainly

    against 1st Canadian Div..which we didn't call a blood bath - just another hard battle- the real Blood Bath was later at the
    Gothic Line - where we had a month of it as the Coriano Ridge Cemetery can testify…or Ortona and Moro…

    Cheers
     
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  20. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Tom just to add perspective to the above.
    Lt. Col. Ware was so devistated when he discovered that only 77 men of the Princess Patricias Canadian Light infantry remained unhurt after the opening day of Operation Chesterfield he resigned his Command. A few others who had gone to ground trickled in after the line was turned on the 24th.
    In total excluding British units in support of the 1st Canadian Infantry Div. the divsion posted nearly 250 fatal casualties on May23rd alone. Adding in the numbers from British support units the figure nears the total fatal casualties (359) to the 3rd canadian Infantry division on the beaches of Normandy 2 weeks later.
    Matt
     

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