The Battles for Point 103 and St. Pierre (8th–18th June 1944)

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Ramiles, Apr 10, 2015.

  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    This from a bit later, but referring back to some of the prior days etc.

    Sgt.B.Symes
    24th Lancers
    A.P.O. England.
    Friday 22nd June

    Dearest Phyl and Rob,

    During the few days we have been in this district we have become friendly with a farmer and his wife they have two kiddies, a boy 5 years and a girl 5 months. The enclosed is a picture of the girl. They appear to do things in style as the layout of the Christening will show/tell.

    They had quite a lot of these so I asked for one to send to you and they were very pleased about it. There appears to be quite a lot of cattle etc. around about and one begins to think there’s no difference, but the farmer soon puts one wise. This particular chap used to get 200 eggs every day, his hens have been whittled down and he is now lucky to get 4. They have eight milking cows for a huge farm that could take over 100. Another thing that we don’t…

    24th_L_Things_are_going_along_quite_well.JPG


    …think much of is the prices, we don’t get much chance to get to shops I admit, but when we do it’s quite out of the question to buy even ordinary things. We did get some Camembert cheese from a local factory at 8 Francs, I went up the road and bought one and was charged 12 Fr., and in the nearest big town they are 35 Fr. They are a luxury of course, our own food is ample so there’s no need to buy, in the country there’s plenty of milk, they’re glad to give it away.

    They make their own butter and very often ask me if we’d like some, quite good stuff but it won’t keep very long.

    Things are going along quite well. The Yanks are doing fine on the Cherbourg sector, they will soon have that tied up and ready to use as a port again.

    The mail has slowed down a bit, perhaps the sorters are on leave.*

    * Nb. the period from 19th-22nd June 1944 was marked by the terrible stormy weather that extensively damaged the Mulberry Harbours north on the Normandy landing beaches.

    Re. Chronological maps of the Normandy campaign: I recently saw (and posted on a Villers Bocage thread) this:



    Published on 27 May 2015
    U.S. Army Daily Situation Maps – Invasion of France - June 6 through August 25, 1944

    Beginning at midnight on D-Day, June 6, 1944, a daily situation map was prepared identifying the location of Allied Army units (U.S. and British) and an estimate of the positions of Germany Army units. The pace of the advanced outran the original map on August 5th where a new map was used to encompass the battle lines.

    Description of how to interpret Army Map Symbols: http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwi...

    High resolution images of the individual maps can be found at: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1133515


    It was quite interesting, for example seeing the differences, i.e. between these two, 13/6/1944 - 14/6/1944 the "front line" doesn't move much, but there is a lot more "weight" of arms etc. brought up to the front(s)

    13d6m1944y.JPG

    14d6m1944y.JPG
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Reflections and Perspective: a young officer growing up (1944-45) - Cranleigh School

    Has (for instance) -

    "After the initial assault on Gold Beach, 50 Division and the Eight Armoured Brigade with its three Regiments, the Essex Yeomanry’s self-propelled guns in support, reassembled for the decisive battles in Normandy and beyond. Perhaps the real baptism of fire for the Brigade and the Essex Yeomanry was on Point 103 – between June 9th-11th. The Essex Yeomanry had its guns below the summit of the high ground north of St Pierre, overlooking Tilly sur Seulles to the south. The Sherman tanks of the 24th Lancers formed a protective shield for the gun position. However, the position and its shield were attacked by Panzer tanks coming up the hill, through the woods, from St. Pierre. The position was held but the 24h Lancers lost several tanks. It was during this confrontation that my own F Troop BSM Broom was killed and, at St Pierre, Lieutenant Sayer, acting as an FOO, was also killed. His body was found several months later. Major Cecil Gosling, who commanded my own 511 Battery, was also wounded; F Troop’s Commander, “Blue” Lyon, took over the double role of his own job with F Troop and command of 511 Battery. Inevitably these events led to an enhanced role for junior officers in the Battery. Another factor operated; Armoured Regiments, subdivided into Squadrons, do not always operate as a single unit. Individual Squadrons often work on their own. That meant that the Forward Observation Officer (FOO) attached to the Regiment does not, as might happen in support of Infantry Battalions, stay with the Commanding Officer of the Regiment supported. The FOO may well be in his tank with one of the Squadrons. This, inevitably, led to a demand for more than one FOO; in that role, I would find myself in a tank from Brigade, permanently attached to the Essex Yeomanry for the purpose. I became known as “Dutch Foo”. "

    Also: At Essex Yeomanry (org) website - at:
    Welcome to the Essex Yeomanry Association

    Some "Point 103" refs.

    A long day in Normandy

    & Happy Valley
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2020
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  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There's a mention here of the CO of the 24th Lancers - (W.A.C Anderson) - "arm in a sling" etc.

    Forgotten Voices Of The Second World War

    Edit:

    And... Martin, Peter Lawrence de Carteret (Oral history)

    Including -

    "REEL 5 Continues: composition of division for Operation Overlord; move to Nightingale Wood near Southampton, 4/1944; amphibious landing exercises; issue of waterproof gas trousers; reaction to briefing about proposed landings on Gold Beach, Normandy, France; problems with administration; embarkation on Landing Craft Infantry (LCI), 3/6/1944; letter written to sister, 4/6/1944. Recollections of operations as officer with 2nd (MG) Bn Cheshire Regt, 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Div during landings on Gold Beach, Normandy, France, D-Day, 6/6/1944: crossing English Channel; sight of Allied armada; character of landing in quiet sector; move out of assembly area during afternoon; German surrenders; plan for his unit to join 8th Armoured Bde; abortive attempt to liberate Bayeux; machine gunning of his Willys Jeep by American fighter aircraft. REEL 6 Continues: wounding of Brigadier Ronald Senior. Recollections of operations as officer with 2nd Bn Cheshire Regt, 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Div in Normandy, France, 6/1944-8/1944: crossing of St Leger-Caen road, 7/6/1944; delays in orders for 8th Armoured Bde column to attack Villers Bocage, 8/6/1944; problems with ambitious start lines; orders to support Sherwood Rangers at Point 103, 9/6/1944; terrain at Point 103; under German tank fire at Point 103, 9/6/1944; narrow escape from shelling during mission to rescue wounded NCO, 9/6/1944; fighting in Point 103 area; verbal encounter with officer of 1st Bn Dorsetshire Regt; importance of overhead cover on Bren Gun Carrier from air bursts; end of attachment to 8th Armoured Bde; character of actions in Tilly-sur-Seulles/Hottot-les-Bagues area, 14/6/1944-15/6/1944; encounter with German half-tracks on route to see brigadier. REEL 7 Continues: reads excerpts from letters sent home during 6/1944; attitude of officers in division to constant attacks; divisional casualties; dangers of troops' dependence on artillery support; signs of battle fatigue; dealing with dead cows; Royal Artillery issue of meteor telegrams; rivalry between 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Div and 51st (Highland) Infantry Div; question of German morale under Allied shells and mortars; danger of 4.2 Inch Mortar bombs losing tail fins; German radio attempt to stop British mortaring; arrival of battalion transport and replacements, 7/1944; attitude to officer who broke down under strain; precautions against possible German use of gas; reaction to death of Lieutenant Colonel Robert James commanding officer of 5th Bn East Yorkshire Regt, 3/8/1944; reaction to arrival of General Brian Horrocks."
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  4. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Audio - podcast - approx 30 mins...

    225. Anthony Cotterell - After D-Day

    With...

    "Merry Christmas from We Have Ways of Making You Talk. Over the next 12 days Al and James are reading extracts from some of their favourite books about the Second World War. Today James is reading an extract from Anthony Cotterell’s war reporting."
     
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    On Facebook - June 2020 -

    Tim Saunders

    As an item in development... for eventual publication...

    _201227_170423_918.jpg
     
  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. Sergeant Charles (Charlie / Spud ) Taylor, MM - army service number: 7928109

    Troop Sergeant and commander of the 2nd tank in the 3rd Troop of "C" Squadron of the 24th Lancers.

    Wounded in Normandy with the 24th Lancers.

    MM reference in the London Gazette...

    Page 641 | Supplement 37442, 22 January 1946 | Lond...

    "SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 24 JANUARY, 1946 p641

    No. 7928109 Sergeant Charles TAYLOR, Royal Armoured Corps (Orpington)"

    With the 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry when he received it - his citation references both the 24th Lancers and the 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry

    https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9221197

    Mention there of D+3 with the 24th Lancers - making contact with an anti-tank defence belt...

    The 24th Lancers - MO's account of the arrival at Point 103...

    20210609_061037.jpg
     
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  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. 10d6m1944...

    Google Translate

    With...
    "According to a Wehrmacht card, my relative served as a young man in Germany in "1. Komp. Panz. Gren. Lehr Regt. 901". He fell on "10.6.44 les Hauts Vents: AG Volltr."

    Etc.

    iiif-service_gmd_gmd5_g5701_g5701s_ict21005-2745x2033x836x631-full-0-default.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    And on the 11th...

    FB_IMG_1623403202311.jpg

    Incidentally the last post, in the translated thread posted above threw me a bit... with...

    "Quite an imbalance of forces:
    British forces
    - German forces
    8. Btl./Leichtes Infanterieregiment Durham (replacement by 10th Btl.)
    24. "Lancers" (armored troops)
    Support from naval artillery
    4. Btl./ Lincolnshire Infantry Regiment 1. Btl./Pz.Gren.LehrRgt. 901
    Panzer Support Pz.LehrDiv.
    If you then factor in the air superiority that the Allies may have, I am not surprised that the battle was decided that way. Actually, it is more that it took the British so long
    ." :-(
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. Le Pont Roc(h)

    https://www.city-facts.com/le-pont-roch-audrieu

    Currently I don't recall having previously seen much associated with Le Pont Roc(h) during WW2. Possibly the bridge was destroyed or too narrow * (for tanks) perhaps.

    Although unfortunately compared to similar areas around it it doesn't seem to have drawn much attention somehow.

    Normandy 1944: The Fight for Point 103, Tilly-sur-Seulles and Vilers BocageBy Tim Saunders - Normandy 1944

    20220129_151741.jpg

    ROCH.png

    * D178
    https://maps.app.goo.gl/5tWJbB3rTmYAeWSh6

    Ref.
    Bayeux. Un camp de prisonniers allemands à Audrieu, au Pont Roch

    FB_IMG_1643475381390.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
  10. dfielder

    dfielder Junior Member

    Thanks for sharing Rob,
    I'll pull out some photographs I took from Gold Beach to St.Pierre and Tilly-sur-Seulles and post them on the 24L site. A few of them may overlap with the numbers on the above map.
    David
     
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  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  12. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    8 Armoured Brigade “Friendly Fire” from Pt 103 – 10 June 1944

    “Friendly Fire” incidents are upsetting. But I suppose they were inevitable at the beginning of the Normandy campaign where not much thought had been given to waging war inland once the beachhead was established, especially in the “Bocage” of Northern Normandy. Armour, Artillery, Infantry, Supporting Arms, Navy and Air Force were all keen to contribute and attack enemy formations quickly while still learning to work together in conditions that bore no relation to Africa or UK training sites.

    On 10 June 1944, 4th Battalion County of London Yeomanry (CLY – “Sharpshooters”) were leading 7th Armoured Division’s advance south down the Seulles valley towards Tilly-sur-Seulles and by around 09:00 “A” Squadron (on the left) had reached the area of Chouain when they were hit by “friendly fire” from the East, almost certainly from units of 8 Armoured Brigade in and around Point 103. There were casualties and two Cromwells were destroyed. It seems this wasn’t the only such incident that morning either.

    According to their Op Order No 2, 7th Armoured should have had a Liaison Officer with 8 Armoured Brigade from the evening of the 9th June to help manage coordination. And I presume the tanks still had Allied Stars on their turrets/engine decks?

    Whilst the incident is mentioned in the WDs of CLY and 22 Armd Bde, it is not mentioned in any 8 Armoured Unit’s diary.

    All three 8 Armoured Tank Regiments had embedded OP tanks from 147 Fd Regiment whose SP Guns were on Pt 103

    24L and 288 Battery of 102 A/Tk Regiment were engaged in St Pierre at the time, 4/7 DG were protecting Point 103 and preparing to patrol eastwards, and SRY were moving back to Pt 103 from Martragny having withdrawn there overnight to replenish and reorganise. SRY could therefore have been closer to Chouain with a better view over that part of the Seulles valley than 4/7 DG.

    Does anybody challenge my analysis or have any more knowledge of this incident? Could it have been initiated by an AirOP?

    Thanks

    Ian
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2023
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  13. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    This type of incident happened often - possibly every day - for various reasons. More often in a fluid situation when the front line was poorly defined or moving fast. If you haven't seen it, there is a long thread about this topic at the 12 O'Clock High Forum. Started by Brian Cull in 2005 and still going with more than 800 replies.

    Friendly fire WWII - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

    You mentioned Chouain, a major crossroads targeted by the Allied air force. A detachment of armoured cars from the Inns of Court advanced there from the beach quickly, probably sooner than expected by Allied pilots. The vehicles were attacked by fighter-bombers, believed to be P-47 Thunderbolts. Some of the knocked out cars are visible in the following Imperial War Museum images:

    B5442
    B5443
    B5382
    B6162
    Art.IWM ART LD 4467
    A70 41-4 (movie)
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
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  14. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Believed to have been 24th Lancers but I'm struggling to find written reference to the incident. 24L had themselves been fired on soon after the Landings by Canadians who "didn't expect to see them (24L) so far forwards".
     
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  15. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    I dont think it can have been 24L firing on 4 CLY as all 3 Squadrons and their 147 FD FOOs were dealing with the overwhelming German counter attack on St Pierre at the alleged time of the friendly fire incident, around 09:00. The only written references I have found are in 4 CLY and 22 Armd Bde War Diaries (and neither of these say the attack was from the Air). SRY were moving back down to Pt 103 at the time so may have been best placed to observe tank movements around Chouain, and being detached from 8 Armd and 147 Fd HQs may not have been made aware of 7 Armoured advance, but this is pure speculation on my part.
    Ian
     
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  16. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Gathering together whatever there is from the 7th Armoured Division's units might help, the 8th Armoured was focused on events to their South, South East and South West...

    And the 50th Div HQ summaries...

    50 Div: H.Q. War Diary, D-Day 1944 June

    FB_IMG_1682322171352.jpg

    Point_103.JPG.jpg

    ----- x ----- x -----

    Edit...

    Screenshot_20230424-094423_Facebook.jpg

    20230424_094404.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
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  17. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    There is a brief description of said incident in this book (pages 383-384). Other than offering a possible cause for the accident, it does not add much to what you've said. On page 89 the author writes that on 6th June 1944, a British tank knocked out a scout car from the Inns of Court, killing two crew members near Creully.

    I can cite the full statements for both cases, if you think it would be useful.


    Cover Tilly-sur-Seulles 1944.jpg
     
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  18. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Must admit I'm struggling with this but am still quite sure it was 24th Lancers. Question to self: if it wasn't 24L, why would I know anything about it (see my forum avatar!)? Sure I've seen something somewhere in writing....or was it mentioned by someone at a 24th Lancers Old Comrades Association Annual Reunion?.... must keep digging I guess. Note: although I've spoken on numerous occasions to veterans of Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry and 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards, this has never come up in conversation....but then, why would it. As I said, keep digging!
     
  19. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

  20. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    I found the entry in this (excellent) book confusing, but it may just be the translation from the original French...

    "Meanwhile, having secured the right flank towards the 5th RTR, the remainder of the Regiment (which Regiment?) attempted a flanking movement towards Saint Bazaire, some two thousand yards to the north east (actially south east) of Jerusalem. The advance was at first hindered by 8th Armoured Brigade who knocked out two tanks before recognition was established. During this period there was a "friendly fire" incident between 4th CLY and 8th Armoured Brigade which resulted in the loss of two 5th RTR Cromwell tanks in the area of the River which hindered the advance"

    The inference is there were two "friendly fire" incidents but although 5th RTR did lose 2 Cromwells this was due to enemy action near Bernieres Bocage

    I may be missing something but I cant see where this interpretation came from

    Ian
    5th RTR WD extract (apologies for the poor copying)
    upload_2023-4-29_12-28-42.png
     

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