The first shot America or Japan

Hello all
Today is 71st Anniversary of Pearl Harbor. The Attack brought the U.S. into the war to assist her Allies in defeating the Axis forces. But who fired the first shot Japan or the U.S.?
The first bomb fell around 7:48 AM, but an hour prior to that something happened not many know about. The U.S.S. Ward a Wickes class destroyer was patroling the entrance to Pearl. On board the crew was a group of Minnesota Reservist. A Submarine was spotted by the crew following a U.S. Ship the U.S.S. Antares into the harbor. The crew went to battle stations and Guns #1 and #3 fired shots. Gun #3 reported scoring a hit on the conning tower of the sub. The crew of Gun #3 was all MN Reservist. The destroyer then dropped depth charges in the area where the sub was last seen. The destroyer reported the the attack to Pearl but nothing was done to heighten the state of alert. The rest is very well known history.
Sixty one years later the Ko-hyoteki class midget sub was found at 1200 ft. depth 2 to 3 miles outside of Pearl Harbor. The sub sank due to the shell hole found in the conning tower. I have included some photos from the Mn state capitol grounds. The 4" gun #3 of the U.S.S. Ward is one of the many memorials to WW2 found in Minnesota. I will also post a war time photo of the gun crew. So it appears the U.S. fired the opening shot of WW2 between these two countries.
Regards
Ttyman

 

As promised here are some more Photos.
Ttyman

 

But who fired the first shot Japan or the U.S.?

Almost certainly Japan. It could have been 'British' (well, Anglo-Australian) but if they'd had enough time to open fire, they might have had enough time to radio in the contact, which they didn't.

The first documented allied shot was Indian.

See here.

There are a few other USS Ward threads on here as well with some useful links.

 

Here are my own comments and Adm. C Nimitz comments
First Adm.Nimitz asked by a young sailor what he thought of the damage at Pearl said the Japanese made three mistakes.
1. Most of the U.S. sailors were not on board their ships, they had shore passes and were in the Honolulu area. The Japanese attacked on the weekend.
2.The Japanese bombed and torpedoed ships and not the dry docks where the ships could be repaired.
3. The Japanese destroyed some fuel but the large fuel reserves were never attacked. The strategic fuel reserves in Hawaii were untouched.
Now my own
1. The U.S. carriers were at sea during the attack. They were the force that defeated the Japanese at Midway. This victory allowed the Allies to defeat the Japanese.
2. Code war: our British allies capturing an enigma in the war against Hitler and the U.S. Navy cracking the Japanese naval code did much to shorten the war. It always helps to know what the enemy is going to do. It also launched the world into the computer age.
Regards
Ttyman

 

Good site Idler. I am not asking where the Japanese started their campaign in the Pacific
or who was attacked first. I am asking who fired first at Pearl Harbor the Japanese or the U.S.? Britain had most assuredly stood alone against the Nazi and was attacked first in the Pacific(as the facts point to in your post) but an hour before Pearl was attacked Ward sank a Japanese sub. Were we(the U.S.)the aggressor or the Japanese ?
Ttyman

 

TTM: Your post caption doesn't refer to who fired the first shots "AT PEARL HARBOR" but only in your message.
Therefore I believe it is fair comment for someone to point out other examples.
Isn't it also the case that, due to the International Date Line, it was the 6TH December in Japan and the 7th in Hawaii, so Japan attacked "technically" a day ahead of the Americans!
I'm puzzled why you should feel that the Americans were the aggressors, as if they started the War against Japan, rather than defending against an undeclared attack by Japan? Whether your agenda is somehow that Minnesota won the War for the other States or not, I don't know, but it seems a decidedly skewed take on the events of the War.
We may now be inundated with rival States claims as to what THEY did that won the War. First John Wayne did it single handedly, now Minnesota, tomorrow what?

 

Isn't it also the case that, due to the International Date Line, it was the 6TH December in Japan and the 7th in Hawaii, so Japan attacked "technically" a day ahead of the Americans!


Not quite, Kevin. It was 3:18 am 8th December (Japanese Standard Time).

Regards,

Dave

 

Actually, I think the first shot was the shooting down of a British Catalina off Malaya on 7 Dec 41 (Malaya local time - 6 Dec Pearl Harbor time). Unfortunately, the Catalina didn't get any warning message off before it was destroyed so Singapore apparently assumed it was lost in bad weather - aircraft were known to just disappear during monsoon season.

 

KevinBattle
You may make any comment you like. But John Wayne nor the Minnesotan's won WW2 alone it was Richard Burton and the men and women from the isle of Man. All joking aside it is Allied forces and combined arms that win wars. We Britain and U.S.A. have been friends and allies for 180 years. We are still defending Democracy around the world at the sacrifice/cost of our young men and women.
Regards
Ttyman

 

Why this preoccupation with who (between japs and americans) shot (and hit) first (in the area of Hawaii) ?
As if the knowledge of sinking this jap sub gives some sort of moral relief ? Or a justification (to the japanese perhaps ? ) ?


The issue is not the shot, but the first act of aggression.
Entering american space (be it via air or at sea) with armed forces with malicious intent is the point of reference.
Worse still, done without declaration of war.


/come to think of it; was there a japanese declaration of war against the brits (and the Siamese?) on time in dec 41 ? If no, then obviously the amateurish delay of the Japanese Embassy staff in Washington was not an accident/incident.
"..so sorry, our embassy staff was on holiday so ambassador had to type himself..." (yeah, right)...Still, this is the image the japs want(ed) to convey.

Oddly enough, the dutch (in the east-indies) declared war on Japan after hearing about Pearl harbour.
/ makes me wonder, if things would have fared any different for Indonesia had there not been their war declaration.... given the oil in Borneo..i'm certain not, but who knows..

Cheers,

 

Since the NEI was Japan's primary target for the southern advance, I don't think the Dutch government's failure to declare war against Japan would have made any difference at all to the outcome.

 

This is Wingman Ben Crum Foshee, American Volunteer Group (AVG), 3rd Pursuit Squadron (Hell's Angels). Ben was in China shooting at Japs months before Pearl Harbor.

 

"Quote" We Britain and U.S.A. have been friends and allies for 180 years.

Such good friends in fact, that the US drew up plans as late as 1930, to attack us and our dominions, with the inclusion of "chemical weapons"

 

"Quote" We Britain and U.S.A. have been friends and allies for 180 years.

Such good friends in fact, that the US drew up plans as late as 1930, to attack us and our dominions, with the inclusion of "chemical weapons"


meh, they still have plans for invading Canada.
Boys at the Pentagon have too much time on their hands.


The difference is between thinking it and doing it.

 

As arnhem44 states, the Japanese midget sub was showing 'hostile intent'; consequently (dependant on the applicable Rules of Engagement), the US was at liberty to respond with force. That the Japanese may not have fired the first shot was either due to the vigilance of the US Navy or the tactical failure of the Japanese sub commander rather than aggression on the part of the US.

Just my twopence,

Roxy

 

As arnhem44 states, the Japanese midget sub was showing 'hostile intent'; consequently (dependant on the applicable Rules of Engagement), the US was at liberty to respond with force. That the Japanese may not have fired the first shot was either due to the vigilance of the US Navy or the tactical failure of the Japanese sub commander rather than aggression on the part of the US.

Just my twopence,

Roxy

There has been much discussion on this topic over the years.

The fact is that the Japanese Midget Submarine was inside a well published Naval restricted area.
As such entering that area was an act of open aggression or hostility.

It was dealt with accordingly.

The same thing would have happened if the British or American Forces would have tried to infiltrate a Japanese naval base.

Regards
Tom

 

This is Wingman Ben Crum Foshee, American Volunteer Group (AVG), 3rd Pursuit Squadron (Hell's Angels). Ben was in China shooting at Japs months before Pearl Harbor.

Errr...no he wasn't. The 1st and 2nd Pursuit Sqns of the AVG didn't move into China until 18 December 1941 with the first engagement taking place on 20 December 1941 over southern Yunnan Province, China. The second engagement by the AVG was on 23 December 1941 over Rangoon, Burma. The AVG was not in action prior to these dates and certainly not prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Don't believe me? The official AVG website, run by the Flying Tigers Association which includes surviving members of the unit confirms it:

HISTORY: American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers)

 

Watch it 40th Ala.
Some here might say the the Tigers were just mercenaries paid in gold by China. How did ya come by the name? I'm also a Yellowhammer!
Guys for the U.S. to plan something(which is a Staff's job) and doing it are two different things. In the 1940's our soldiers(U.S.) were using broomstick for guns and stovepipe for artillery. How could we possibly attack Britain with gas? That is a real joke. You "Britain/Commonwealth" stood alone till the summer of 41 when the mad man attacked Russia. This whole thread was done to get some good conversation started on the opening of the pacific battles. I was being Devil advocate during the starting two or three posts. The Japanese started the war in the Pacific and the Allies finished it. A lot of what if's could be spoken of to this reply. Why/how the Japanese got as far as they did?
I cannot get my icons/similies to post properly or there would be lot of the little guys laughing for this reply. I do appreciate all the banter and I know most here like to stick to facts and not what if's. We each believe our country is the best in the World and that is the way it should be. I still do believe that this forum is one of the best on the web!Thanks for allowing me to post my threads.
Regards
Ttyman

 

How America planned to destroy BRITAIN in 1930 with bombing raids and chemical weapons | Mail Online

 

Yes yes I did not deny that the plans were there. As stated it is a staff's job to plan. We were financially broke at this time(1930's), how would we Bomb or gas you? There are always kooks in our military who plan things like this. And kooks in the civilian world who believed the mad man was good. The mad man did put Germans to work. If he stopped there all would have been fine, but he was a mad man. In my own time I remember Ollie North saying he feared ben laden and my government laughing at him. We were not laughing on 9-11. We are not laughing now, it has cost all alliance countries. Do we have a plan to attack Canada? I would not doubt it. It would be wrong to take what is not ours. I have no doubt that we would not do it as the rest of world would not allow it. Nor would most of the good people of my country. Have we taken what is not ours in the past? Undeniably yes. That is the reason why history is so important, so the same mistakes are not made over. Seem it me the politicians in my own country need a few history lessons.
Look at the last war we fought with Britain. Would we have declared war on you if your navy was not taking sailors off our ships? No, so why did your government allow it? Did they learn from that Yes. They stayed out of our Civil War. Enough said. As most say My Country-right or wrong still My Country. In case you did not know I am a veteran who has worked with both the fine and outstanding military services of Britain and Canada.
Regards
Ttyman