As a new member I apologise in advance as I can imagine that this may have been discussed many times before but it would be interesting to gather the views of some or all of you. The reasons behind Hitler's halt order of 24 May 1940 has always been much debated. From what I have read I've never been able to fully decide what the most likely reason was. I have formed an opinion based on good and well reasoned research only to read a convincing counter arguement that is equally compelling. Off the top of my head I can recall reading some of the following as the reason for the order: Hitler's desire to make a negotiated peace with Britain so as to turn his full attention to the East and so allowing the manpower of the BEF to escape. The preservation of as much as the limited armour Germany had at the time in readiness for the execution of case red (fall rot) The unsuitability of the ground in and around the Dunkirk perimeter for armoured operations. The lack of fuel and munitions. To allow Goering to fulfill his boast that the Luftwaffe alone could smash the BEF. To make the General Staff of both the OKW/OKH and aware of who exactly, for want of a better word, was the Boss. Would anybody care to offer an opinion as to the merits of these suggestions?
Hello, Whatever the reason, one you can definately dismiss in my opinion is the theory of allowing the BEF to escape back to England. There are around 2,200 casualties recorded on the Dunkirk Memorial (Which is more than half of all the missing men that fought in France and Belgium) alone who died between 24th May and 2nd June 1940 that disproves that theory. Obviously this doesn't included the largest loss of life to the BEF in one single incident which was the loss of the Lancastria. None of these poor souls would have ever have thought Hitler was letting the BEF escape. There are of course many more cemeteries throughout France and Belgium that contain the graves of British personel that died after the halt order upto 2nd June. Another thing worth bearing in mind Hitler gave the halt order on the 24th May and Op Dynamo never started until the 26th May and even then the French thought Dunkirk was to be defended and not evacuated. I believe the book 'Tapping Hitlers Generals' covers the Halt Order in some detail. Cheers Andy
I'm fairly new to studying Dunkirk etc. [got the "bug" from reading posts on this forum] I had understood that the Halt Order didn't originate from Hitler but was suggested from lower down the chain and then confirmed by him. Noel
Noel I recommend you obtain a copy of the book DUNKIRK by High Segag-Montefiore. Excellent book on the build up and eventual evacuation. its available from all good bookshops. After you have finished it you will realise what a miracle it was and how little hardware we really had saved.
Noel I recommend you obtain a copy of the book DUNKIRK by High Segag-Montefiore. Excellent book on the build up and eventual evacuation. its available from all good bookshops. After you have finished it you will realise what a miracle it was and how little hardware we really had saved. And as a follow up I would strongly recommend 'Dunkirk - The Men They Left Behind' by Sean Longden. I always doubted the 'escape' theory myself behind the Halt Order but as it is a theory that has been put forward by some writers I thought it should be included. I received the James Holland book on the Battle of Britain for Christmas. His take is that it was Hitler and Von Runstedt's inability to grasp the then modern theories on fast moving, mechanised warfare that led to the order. In my very humble opinion, the fact that leading elements of Guderian's 1st Pz and the SS-Totenkopf had already crossed the canal line on May 24th with the majority of the BEF still to the South West gives rise to probably one of the biggest counterfactuals of the war, if not modern history.
I have to disagree with every one,because,IMHO,every one is starting from an unproved assumption:that ,without the halt order(which did not originate from Hitler,but from von Rundstedt)the Germans could capture the BEF (in fact:half of the BEF). Well,that has never been proved,and,will never be proved .I could reply that,with or without the halt order,the Germans could not capture the BEF (=50 % of the BEF),and,I never could prove it,but,noone could and will prove the opposite . Ex:the "leading elements " of the 1PD and of the Totenkopf :unless we know something about the "leading" elements :number of tanks,artillery,ammunition,fuel,the term "leading elements" means nothing .It could be 60 men with one tank,or 600 with 10 tanks .
and ,about the majority of the BEF still to the Southwest,that means a minority on the canalAnd that minority could be 60 men with one antitank gun,or 600 with 10 anti tank guns
you mean :some less smileys?Yes,it would make my post somewhat less confusing (sh..t:sorry) I will be obedient .
I have to disagree with every one,because,IMHO,every one is starting from an unproved assumption:that ,without the halt order(which did not originate from Hitler,but from von Rundstedt)the Germans could capture the BEF (in fact:half of the BEF). Well,that has never been proved,and,will never be proved .I could reply that,with or without the halt order,the Germans could not capture the BEF (=50 % of the BEF),and,I never could prove it,but,noone could and will prove the opposite . Ex:the "leading elements " of the 1PD and of the Totenkopf :unless we know something about the "leading" elements :number of tanks,artillery,ammunition,fuel,the term "leading elements" means nothing .It could be 60 men with one tank,or 600 with 10 tanks . I'm still trying to work out this post but I am little confused by your fact that by 24 May there was only 'half' or '=50%' of the BEF to capture if the halt order had not been issued. That sounds like a statistic. How did you arrive at that figure please?
well,the BEF strength on 10 may was some 400000 men,during operation Dynamo (Dunkirk evacuation) 198229 (the figures differ following the sources) British soldiers and 139997 others (mainly French) were evacuated ,of which 98780 from the beaches and 239446 from the harbour . The remainder of the BEF were evacuated from Normandy,Bretagne and the French west coast ,not all :the 51nd Highland division was captured at StValéry en Caux .
Another point that is not mentioned is that Dunkirk evacuation numbers far far exceeded anything that could have been forecast. The Royal Navy estimated 45000 at the very best and they had been mobilising vessels for some time. The German estimate of how many could get away was probably far lower. So in my view the Germans would not see the escape of 20 to 30 thousand men without any equipment to be of much importance.
I'm surprised that the Arras counter-attack hasn't been mentioned by name - German fears about those long, exposed flanks. And they must have been aware that the French had even more and better tanks than us.
I'm surprised that the Arras counter-attack hasn't been mentioned by name - German fears about those long, exposed flanks. And they must have been aware that the French had even more and better tanks than us. I mentioned this action and the halt order in a separate thread on 27 December 2010; thus: "The role of the 7RTR and 4RTR was to support an attack by the 151st Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division (and other supporting arms) in what became known as the Arras Counter-Attack, west and south of Arras, on the 21 May 1940. 151st Infantry Brigade was made up of three battalions, 6th, 8th and 9th Durham Light Infantry. The 9DLI was in reserve, with the attack being made in two columns; 6DLI on the left and 8DLI on the right. 7RTR was in the van of 8DLI in the right hand column. Neither the 7RTR or 4RTR tanks kept in very good contact with the DLI (which is what would have been expected of a supporting arm) and this was not helped by problems with their radio communications. That said, they shot up a significant amount of soft targets causing very heavy casualties amongst the German Infantry. As Andy mentions at Message #9, the attack failed to meet its ‘hard’ objectives. This is not surprising given that the French, who were to simultaneously attack south towards Amiens and north towards the Somme, did not turn up; albeit the 3ieme Division Legere Mecanique who were protecting the 8DLI flank with their Samua tanks did show and gave a good account of themselves. Whereas the left hand column moved furthest and captured circa 400 German prisoners, the right hand column caused the Germans most concern; as it cut across Rommel’s 7th Panzer Division’s lines of communication. Rommel personally intervened in the action in order to restore matters and in so doing his aide, Lieutenant Most, was shot and killed; he had been standing only a few yards from the General at the time. The action shook the German High Command, a lot of whom thought the lead Panzers were over-extended and is often quoted as a significant factor in the German ‘halt’ order, which enabled so many British and Allied troops to evacuate back to the UK. Most of my reading material concentrates on 50 Div, but: DUNKIRK Fight To The Last Man, Hugh Sebag- Montefiore, Penguin 2007, Chapter 12, devotes 14 pages to the Counter-Attack and 6 of those to the 7RTR action. No mention of Capt. Kauter though." Best, Steve.
I've always been of the opinion that the Germans still felt that most of the fighting was ahead of them in terms of defeating the French Army. They didnt have the benefit of hindsight to let them know that the French were in complete disarray, and the Panzers would be needed to exploit any breakthrough south of the Somme. The main objective of the campaign was the defeat of the French Armies, Dunkirk was an opportunity to be sure and one that was sorely missed but the terrain was also unforgiving, there was a fierce defense being put up by the B.E.F.
There is another suggestion that has not been mentioned which was one I'd never heard of until the other day. The National Day of Prayer. According to Frederic Grossmith The National Day of Prayer on the 26th May had a major part in saving the BEF of which the Halt Order was part of.
