The Soviets Fought The Japanese Twice

Discussion in 'War Against Japan' started by DengXiaoPing, Oct 20, 2005.

  1. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Reports are different from research papers.

    And I am not dismissing the research papers as I am sure that the actual facts contained within them are accurate or as accurate as can be. But two research papers on the same subject with the same factual content can produce two very different conclusions. This means that if you are going to quote them as evidence to back your views, they should be substantiated by other material.

    To forward them as "US Army Reports" when they are not is deceptive and wrong. I am not "telling me that all reports are wrong that have been posted by the us army or just those that prove you so dead wrong?" Because what you have forwarded as US Army reports, aren't. Why else would they have "The views expressed in this publication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Department of Defense or any element thereof" written on the forward page? Or didn't you bother to read them?

    I also thank you on your observations:- "And no you could not enter a report because if you are to lazy to read them then you would be way to lazy to write one". I'd hate to assume anything about you, so I won't say I've written more reports than you (and I don't mean for school) but I would say that if you had written any professional reports I'd hope you'd have made a much more adult job of them than you have with your posts on here. You still know nothing about me so your childish and abusive comments are as everything else you post, just your opinion.
     
  2. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    The Finns kicked Russia's butt. Russia was probably the least talented military in WWII man for man. They simply had so many men that were of no value as human beings to their government that the Stalin just threw them at real armies in hopes that the real armies would get tired of killing them or run out of ammo to kill any more. If you read Bidermanns “In Deadly Combat”, he writes how the commissars kept sending people into his pak gun and supporting MG 42 that they were piling up and he became so sick of killing Russian after Russian wondering how their officers could keep sending them until they ran out of men to get killed.

    From Russia's standpoint, the more of their own soldiers they could get killed on the battlefield the less Stalin would have to kill later after the war stopped if someone had not accidentally killed him first. I am surprised Stalin didn't use his own countrymen to feed his soldiers in the field or pigs on the farms. Russia was not only at the level of a nation back in the 1800s but also not that far from cannibalism in their absence of conscience and morals. If you would slaughter 15 million people without blinking an eye, why would you not feed their carcasses to the starving soldiers or hungry pigs? Maybe Germany should have let Finland conquer Russia. If Germany had not have helped conquer Poland, you would have thought Poland could have destroyed Russia. At least the Polish could fight.

    I don’t know MaxPowerPing, I can’t figure out why anyone would revel in Russia’s 20th century history. I would think you would be trying to hide the shame. One question I have is that if the US had ever given Russia a nuclear weapon to where they could really kill some people in seconds, would Stalin have used it to kill Germans or his own women and children? Who do Soviet communist leaders hate the most, the enemy or their own countrymen? We in the western world can’t understand how human beings can be of so little value in a country. What’s it like being worth less to your country than your pig (assuming you can afford one)? Also, what are you doing on a computer? I thought the government forbade communication with the “decadent world” outside mother Russia? Can’t you spend 40 years in Siberia for thinking a thought that is not approved by the government? Why has there been no one in Russia in the last 80 years that wanted the communist government’s “liver on a stick”? They kept you starving, in poverty and in fear of your life, without poverty justice or protection from thugs for decades, why didn’t you folks simply rise up and kill those in control? Isn’t it time to get the ropes out and hang some of these evil monsters and join the family of nations in the earth in freedom and prosperity?

    Just curious.
     
  3. DengXiaoPing

    DengXiaoPing Discharged

    Jimbo

    Yes the finis were better but the red army grew in skill also the 15 million nummber is wrong as i have said before

    And stop reading fiction read facts

    Just go here

    http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/csi.asp

    Or just read this

    Our view of the war in the east derives from the German experiences of 1941 and 1942, when blitzkrieg exploited the benefits of surprise against a desperate and crudely fashioned Soviet defense. It is the view of a Guderian, a Mellenthin, a Balck, and a Manstein, all heroes of Western military history, but heroes whose operational and tactical successes partially blinded them to strategic realities. By 1943-44, their "glorious" experiences had ceased. As their operational feats dried up after 1942, the Germans had to settle for tactical victories set against a background of strategic disasters. Yet the views of the 1941 conquerors, their early impressions generalized to characterize the nature of the entire war in the east, remain the accepted views. The successors to these men, the Schoeners, the Heinricis, the defenders of 1944 and 1945, those who presided over impending disaster, wrote no memoirs of widespread notoriety, for their experiences were neither memorable nor glorious. Their impressions and those of countless field grade officers who faced the realities of 1944-45 are all but lost.

    This imbalanced view of German operations in the east imparts a reassuring, though inaccurate, image of the Soviets. We have gazed in awe at the exploits of those Germans who later wrote their personal apologies, and in doing so we have forgotten the larger truth: their nation lost the war-and lost it primarily in the east against what they portrayed as the "artless" Soviets.

    Yoú must understand that the red warmy grew much in skill

    It is very simple it was poor and then it becem better and better until it was the best

    Very simple it became better and you seem to have missed this fact

    The Eastern Front was by far the largest and bloodiest theatre of World War II, and indeed has little parallel in the history of human conflict. It involved more land combat than all other World War II fronts combined. The Red Army and other forces of the USSR inflicted about 80% of losses suffered by German land forces (Germany's strongest armed force comprised of the Heer and the Waffen-SS) in World War II or about 3 million soldiers and one million euro-axis soldiers. The USSR, for its part, lost as many as 25 million lives where 8 million were soliders. Also, the invasion of areas of the East was a motivated by a powerful anti-Slavic bigotry on the part of the Nazis which was not paralleled on the Western Front.

    The Eastern Front was unparalleled for its high intensity, ferocity, and brutality. The fighting involved millions of German and Soviet troops along a broad front. It was by far the deadliest single front in World War II, with over 4 million deaths on the Axis Forces, Soviet battle deaths were about 7 to 8 million, and civilian deaths were about 14 million. The genocidal death toll was attributed to several factors, including brutal mistreatment of POW's and captured partisans by both sides, multiple atrocities by the Germans against the civilian population, the wholesale use of weaponry on the battlefield against huge masses of infantry, and Joseph Stalin's draconian policies against supposed enemies. The multiple battles, and most of all, the use of scorched earth tactics employed first by the Soviets and afterwards by Germans destroyed agricultural land, infrastructure, and whole towns, leaving much of the population homeless and without food.

    Allied forces suffered approximately 12 million military deaths (of which 8 million were Soviet and 3 million Chinese) and Axis forces 6 million (of which 4 million were German). The Soviet Union suffered by far the largest death toll— about 20 to 28 million Soviets died in total, of which 13 to 20 million were civilians. Of the total deaths in World War II approximately 16% were on the Axis side and 84% on the Allied side.

    Also the axis suffered about 4 million in wounded and or prisioners on the eastern front

    U.S.S.R.: Invaded by Germany in June 1941, the Soviet Union fought a lone, heroic struggle on the European mainland against Nazi Germany and her allies from that date until the opening of the Second Front in the D-Day invasion in June 1944. She suffered by far the greatest casualties of any country on either side. By 1943, in the wake of the climactic victory at Stalingrad, the Red Army drove the Germans out of Russia in a series of giant offensives that ended with the capture of Berlin in May 1945. It may fairly be said that in "bleeding the German army white" the Soviet Union made the greatest contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Just read this line again

    It may fairly be said that in "bleeding the German army white" the Soviet Union made the greatest contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    And lets read it again

    It may fairly be said that in "bleeding the German army white" the Soviet Union made the greatest contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    One more time so that it sticks

    It may fairly be said that in "bleeding the German army white" the Soviet Union made the greatest contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Now add up all the facts 8 million euro-axis casualties because of the Soviets, dont you think 8 million men plus houndres of thousands of tanks and airplanes and artillery would have made a diffrence on the beaches of normady do you even think there would have been a normandy if not the soviets unnion hade taken care of 80% of the nazi army

    These are the facts and they are correct
    It is a simple as that

    Now give me your facts
    And dont forget to give proper refrences ;)
     
  4. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    "She suffered by far the greatest casualties of any country on either side"

    Well? Brave struggle or a rank disregard for the welfare of their troops? If you drive your own troops into human wave attacks, how can you plead that your losses were anything other than a waste, after the fact?
     
  5. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    MaxPower, there is a big difference between truth and facts and what you proclaim are truth and facts regardless of whose “opinion” you quote. You can find "claims" by people of all statures, even those with military backgrounds and they so often contradict each other. You have simply found the one you like, ignored the rest and built a radical doctrine on it that makes you feel good. We have a saying "there is no smoke without a fire". What it means is that most truth is identified through a preponderance of the evidence, not through the intensity of a zealot that pushes it.

    No matter how much you believe something, no matter how hard you wish something, the truth remains unchanged. Zeal does nothing for truth. Had Russia have joined Germany and attacked the Allies, they would have been slaughtered along with them. The air forces of these nations could have destroyed every piece of equipment sent from the furthest parts of Russia including the entire German armies, SS and Wehrmackt, and the Red army, just by air power alone. Yes it would have taken at least another 6 months but the war would still have ended in 1945; that is because of how many men there were on both sides of the eastern front. It takes a while to kill entire armies, even if you are good at it as the Allies were.

    Russia had some nice tanks but they too were flaming boxes of dead men randomly exploding and killing everyone around them, if a Jabo (fighter bomber) spots them or is radioed their position by someone looking through Binoculars. The fastest way for an expert soldier to die when a fighter-bomber has appeared on the scene, is to get into the biggest more formidable and thickest armored tank with the heaviest gun because it is probably the first one the pilot would choose to destroy on the first pass. Russia had nothing to go against the western forces. There tanks were good but still big iron coffins when a Jabo is circling above. If it were not for the western air forces, Russia would be German now because they would not only have one but will have killed off all the slavs. If you are Russian and are glad your nation survived Germany, you should find an RAF pilot on the web and thank him for removing the Blitzkrieg capacity of Germany so Russia didn’t fall in a month. Fire storms alone would have destroyed Stalingrad, Leningrad, and Moscow a day a piece. Just ask the folks in Dresden. If the RAF had not gotten rid of most of Germany’s bombers, Russia would have been “crispy-critters”, they would have tasted what it is like to have a storm of fire so strong it sucks people into the city from surrounding cities.

    No I have to believe the Lend-Lease money given to Russia would have been more effective at quickly ending the war by giving it to the “true” allies and letting them quickly drive from Germany to Russia. The hard part would have been getting Patton and Monty to stop at the Russian border. Russia was not worthy. They were too backwards and too weak an army that didn’t know what they were doing. Maybe we could have struck up a deal with Finland to crush Russia with the weaponry we gave Russia and then the cold war would not have had to have been fought. Heck, you might even be a free man today, who knows?
     
  6. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Didn't most Germans die of exposure in the eastern front? I know the Russian government was not able to feed 30 million and let them starve to death, but then again it has already been established that the Russian government was far better at killing its own innocent people than the enemy.

    (DengXiaoPing @ Oct 22 2005, 10:08 AM) [post=40423]Look at all the refrences, it takes years to write papers like these and you dismiss them justlike that, it is you who are blinded by your cold war thinking that cant see that the papers and the books and the universties are correct
    [/b]
    Has the Kremlin or Pravda approved these papers so that we can be sure they are "really" factual? If they say they are factual, we have to believe it. Putin would not allow lies you know. BTW: Putin said that it was the Lend-Lease and the fact the US and Aussies kept Japan occupied that saved Russia. Is he credible? He has papers too.
     
  7. DengXiaoPing

    DengXiaoPing Discharged

    Plant-pliot the 20 millian civilians were not in some human waves they were extreminated just like the jewes

    Just look at the nummbers

    Jimbo just look at the refrences just go to any university and talk to any professor and you will find out your self

    The facts that you call wrong are written by people working in the Us army and are translated from the German and Soviet Archives

    It is a simple as that it is you who have no idea what actually happned

    And exposure just read this

    Made by these people

    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College

    http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Chew/CHEW.asp

    Hitler's plans also miscarried before the onset of severe winter weather; he was so confident of a lightning victory that he did not prepare for even the possibility of winter warfare in Russia. Yet his eastern army suffered more than 734,000 casualties (about 23 percent of its average strength of 3,200,000 troops) during the first five months of the invasion, and on 27 November 1941, General Eduard Wagner, the Quartermaster General of the German Army, reported that "We are at the end of our resources in both personnel and materiel. We are about to be confronted with the dangers of deep winter." [My italics.]

    The facts are there and that was just during 5 months in 1941
    And you have no refrences you just pull things out of thin air

    And As allways plan-pilot read the whole story
    7.7 million casulties do not come from human waves when the other side loses 8 million deaths

    Also the 20 million were exterminated just like the jewes they were not millatery soldiers
     
  8. Reverend Bob

    Reverend Bob Senior Member

    I think it would be great if someone (me perhaps) would say "Ping/Max your so right!!
    I never thought of it that way before!! Those darn Soviets!! Who would have Guessed??".

    Otherwise this may go on and on, just as I remember Rainman doing the "Who's on First" routine.

    Cheers
    Bob
    P.S. "Quantas never crashed"
     
  9. swd1974

    swd1974 Junior Member

    I dont think Ping is too far off. If not for Hitler being so dumb as to attack Russia when he did the brits and the middle east/africa would have been defeated.

    But this doesnt lend credability to Russia. They were idiots to trust Hitler and got their just desserts.

    No doubt in my mind at least 1 german infantryman is worth 5 russian soldiers. And Zhukov, had he been German he wouldnt have been one of the top 20 german generals.

    Had Hitler attacked 2 months earlier Russia would have fallen. Or had they sent winter clothing when they attacked it COULD have turned out differently as well.
     
  10. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    (DengXiaoPing @ Oct 22 2005, 10:16 PM) [post=40446]Plant-pliot the 20 millian civilians were not in some human waves they were extreminated just like the jewes

    Also the 20 million were exterminated just like the jewes they were not millatery soldiers
    [/b]
    So they slaughtered their soldiers by running human waves at machine guns and they killed their civilians like the Jews in a slow tortured starvation. Hmmmm. Interesting. Stalin must have had a "lot" of turncoats including in his army. Maybe it would be simpler if you described who mother Russia did not kill. Instead of bragging how Russian soldiers killed over a million unarmed Japanese in 11 days, why not brag about how many friends and loved ones, little sisters and brothers, grandmothers, anyone close to the soldiers that mother Russia asked them to so willingly exterminate? I mean think of how many 3 year old children these "brave" soldiers must have shot in WWII. Any accounts of soldiers having to shoot their own mothers, baby sisters or even their own children because they were eating morsels of food Stalin wanted? Since Russian soldiers were known for dying in extraordinary numbers, even in small battles, I was wondering. In the "university" library that Russia has (you sound as if there is only one) are there any stories where the brave Russian soldiers were attacking the unarmed women and children that maybe a farmer had picked up a pitch fork and took out an entire division of “elite” Soviet soldiers? Did the commissars force them to rush the pitch fork?

    Do you realize that if you cowards had let that out in WWII, you wouldn't have been fighting Germans alone in Berlin? In fact you wouldn’t have made it to East Prussia, the bombers overhead wouldn’t have been German light bombers but Allied heavies looking for anything with a red star on it. Instead of a coward being symbolized in the west by the term “yellow belly” they would have been termed “red star”. Do you know how quickly the Allies could have removed Russia's army from the ranks of living murderers? What a cowardly country. No wonder your people are like animals to their government. They revel in the murder of their own families. I have always heard of the rapes and murders of civilians by Russian soldiers, but until I heard from you I believed they were somewhat exaggerated because most men have more decency as human beings. Seems like the lesser evil men were tried at Nuremberg. Seems like we should have had the “Moscow Tribunals” and hung virtually every Russian soldier since from what you said it must have taken them all to kill 20 million of their own people. That’s a tall task. But then your grandfather would have been put to death either for being a coward or being killed by a coward, and you would have never been born to come and tell us how cowardly Russian soldiers in WWII were.

    MaxPing, do you even read your own references? The link you sent that had the "report" says that it was the weather that saved the Russians. That's what everybody's been saying. We didn't need you to find links to prove that. People, go read Ping's link. You won't believe how much General Winter played in saving the Soviets. It was a much bigger factor than we had first thought. Ping had hammered it in stone. The article he posted should have been titled "No Hard Winter, No Live Russia". Here is the link where Ping proves that the Soviets were saved by the cold winter. http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Chew/CHEW.asp#3 Thanks MaxPower. You had us going there for a minute. I was about to say that the Russians were the bravest and best warriors in the world until you posted the link to that report. Now I can go back to thinking the Russian army sucked, with more confidence than ever!
     
  11. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    Maxpower,

    Italy June 1943 - Europe?

    You did not quote the 2nd front invasion of Italy on the Eurpopean mainland in June 1943. This forced the Germans to reinforce Italy, whilst still protecting France etc and through the dupe of Hitler, reinforce Greece. (Operation Mincemeat)

    Whilst the numbers of deaths on both sides is a tragedy, you should not minimise the effects of contributions made by other countries. With North Africa secure, the MTO secure, shipping lanes secure, Air superiority, the noose began to tighten and proceeded from there, to be drawn all the way to Germany.

    You may say slow, I say methodical and responsible.

    The Soviet Union only fought alone on Soviet territory with their own manpower, in every other way they were assisted by other countries in one way or another and no matter the size of that support it was aimed at the eventual defeat of Germany and the Soviet Union reaped the rewards of that assistance.

    Have you ever considered what would have been the result on the eastern front if Britain had capitulated in 1941? She didn't, however you would not have to be a Rhodes scholar to work it out.







     
  12. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    You can't post that spidge!

    It contradicts what MaxPing has told us, and don't forget:-

    </div><div class='quotemain'>U.S.S.R.: Invaded by Germany in June 1941, the Soviet Union fought a lone, heroic struggle on the European mainland against Nazi Germany and her allies from that date until the opening of the Second Front in the D-Day invasion in June 1944.

    These are the facts and they are correct
    It is a simple as that[/b]


    Our Soviet Union supporting academic from Sweden (a neutral country, which is probably why he's not crowing about the Swedish war effort) has already told us 'how it was'. How can you contradict 'The Facts'? o_O

    As an aside, I also feel that you failed to mention that the invasion of Italy in 1943 was only made possible once the North African/Middle Eastern campaign was under control. That would lead to the argument that it was 'the second front' that just took a while to actually get onto the european mainland. It certainly ensured that the British were fighting the Germans from September 1939 to the war's conclusion in 1945 as well as fighting in the far east from beginning to end as well. There aren't too many countries that can say that.
    </div><div class='quotemain'>It is a simple as that[/b]
    ;)
     
  13. DengXiaoPing

    DengXiaoPing Discharged

    Jimbo - you know nothing the Japanese were not un armed just read what these people say

    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College

    Since 1979, the Combat Studies Institute has regularly published a wide array of official Research Studies, Reports, Surveys, and Bibliographies of abiding interest to the professional military officer and scholar. In 1999, the Combat Studies Institute, the Combined Arms Research Library and the United States Disciplinary Barracks initiated a project to make CSI publications available on the Internet.

    The publications listed are a complete listing of Combat Studies Institute and CGSC press publications of the past 20 years. The ones currently available are hot linked to the documents, which are in PDF or html, sometimes both.

    Plant-pilot To bad your not Japanese I would have loved to have you in manchuria on the Japanese side in 1945
    Just as You know that the Soviets used Human waves from day 1 to the last day so did the Japanese

    Perhaps focusing upon foreign (primarily Finnish and German) accounts of Soviet human wave tactics so prevalent in 1939, 1941, and 1942, the Japanese were not aware that the diminished source of manpower and the growing skill of Soviet commanders had led to the development of tactics relying on firepower and maneuver of tanks and assault guns. Thus, they fell victim to the false image of Soviet clumsiness projected by the early years of the war-a stereotype that reality had shattered by 1945. Perhaps most distressing to Japanese commanders were the pesky Soviet forward detachments, constantly probing, bypassing, and attacking deeply. The detachments prevented establishment of coherent defenses and, when stopped or damaged, they simply reformed or were reconstituted. Most surprising to the Japanese was the Soviet commanders' new display of initiative at all levels. Nonexistent in 1941 and 1942, that initiative was evident in 1945, and it surprised and confused the Japanese.

    Jimbo I will only say this once You are wrong that the allies would have won without Soviet aid and dead wrong that if by some funky reason if the Soviets hade picked up arms with the nazies that the allies would have any chans
    It is clear without a shadow of a doubt that you know nothing

    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/csi.asp
    http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/csi.asp
    http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/csi.asp
    http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/csi.asp

    All i ask is that both of you read what Combined Arms Research Library U.S. Army Command & General Staff College have upload on their page for anyone to read

    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College
    Combined Arms Research Library
    U.S. Army Command & General Staff College

    JIMBO YOU CANT READ YOU MUST LEARN THAT FIRST

    The Russian winter defeated Napoleon, as every Frenchman knows. It also defeated Hitler, as most Germans know. Many Americans share that "knowledge"-which is false in both cases! Those popular myths illustrate the uncritical acceptance and perpetuation of rationalizations designed to obscure the fact that those "invincible" Western military paragons were humbled by the "inferior" Russians.

    JUST READ THE INTRODUCTION, YOU HAVE LEARNED HOW TO CLICK ON A LINK NOW LEARN HOW TO READ
     
  14. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    (plant-pilot @ Oct 23 2005, 07:14 PM) [post=40455]You can't post that spidge!

    It contradicts what MaxPing has told us, and don't forget:-

    </div><div class='quotemain'>U.S.S.R.: Invaded by Germany in June 1941, the Soviet Union fought a lone, heroic struggle on the European mainland against Nazi Germany and her allies from that date until the opening of the Second Front in the D-Day invasion in June 1944.

    These are the facts and they are correct
    It is a simple as that[/b]


    Our Soviet Union supporting academic from Sweden (a neutral country, which is probably why he's not crowing about the Swedish war effort) has already told us 'how it was'. How can you contradict 'The Facts'? o_O

    As an aside, I also feel that you failed to mention that the invasion of Italy in 1943 was only made possible once the North African/Middle Eastern campaign was under control. That would lead to the argument that it was 'the second front' that just took a while to actually get onto the european mainland. It certainly ensured that the British were fighting the Germans from September 1939 to the war's conclusion in 1945 as well as fighting in the far east from beginning to end as well. There aren't too many countries that can say that.
    </div><div class='quotemain'>It is a simple as that[/b]
    ;)
    [/b]
    I do feel a bit sorry for Max as he is terribly off track by refusing to acknowledge that contributions outside of his preferred theatre wee made and were significant in other ways than total lives lost.

    From my perspective, Australians were flying in the BoB as soon as they could get a plane. The may have only been 40 of them but they were there.

    Consider that at this stage, there were 450 Australians on active service with the RAF which was as many as was with the total RAAF in those early days of 1939.

    Although we had no army as such in 1939 for use outside Australia due to the homeland defence Act, by May 1940 we had part of the 6th Division in Palestine, and then the 7th, the 8th in England/to Malaya and the 9th on its way to North Africa. Australia was a country of only 7 million and recruited over 1 million to the armed services. 12,000 miles to England is a long way to come for a fight.
     
  15. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Spidge,
    I'm sorry if you thought my post was 'having a go' at the level of the Australian contribution. Far from it. The contribution from the Australians and all the other commonwelth countries was invaluable. Nobody forced them to join in the fight, they volunteered to step in in support of Britain. And very welcome they were too.

    My comment on being there from start to finish was more as a comment to MaxPing who refuses to consider anything that counters his idea that the Soviet Union won WW2.

    I'm not even going to bother pointing out that his links to the research library aren't all that he makes them out to be. I've said it too often before and he just carries on using the links and saying that they are all factual conclusions..... even when it is pointed out that some of them actually cotradict his argument.

    Do you also find it strage that as soon as an argument is proved wrong..... he stops mentioning it and carrys on with others? Mind you, he never acknowledges that he's been wrong. Together with his repeating of lines and links in the same post as a childish way of 'stamping his feet' leads me to the conclusion that he's probably only a school child....... which does account for quite a bit.

    MaxPing, if you are not a school child I apologize for thinking you are......... but you do act like one I'm affraid.
     
  16. DengXiaoPing

    DengXiaoPing Discharged

    The only one who is a school child is you, and i must repeat myself because you never read more than maybe 1 or 2 words that i say

    And it would be so simple to prove me wrong just go to an University or milatery academy and ask them who did the most in stopping the euro axis

    Just ask them who did the most the allies or the Soviets
    Did the Soviets use mass wave tactis?

    And if normandy never would have happned who would have won

    And like i have said before you never give any refrences

    And i give so many of them
    But still you refuse

    It is you who is the school child refuseing to learn anything

    YOU NEVER GIVE ANY REFRENCES YOU JUST PULL THINGS OUT OF THIN AIR
    GIVE SOME REAL REFRENCES OR STOP TALKING

    I will post my refrences one last time

    Any book that is course material in any university
    Barbarossa : the Russian-German conflict, 1941-1945 / Alan Clark
    Richard Overy : Russia's war

    Now please give me your refrences
    That are equal to that
     
  17. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    (DengXiaoPing @ Oct 23 2005, 12:42 PM) [post=40473]Barbarossa : the Russian-German conflict, 1941-1945 / Alan Clark
    [/b]

    I personally think that Clark, who was very much on the political right, had a good deal of sympathy for the Germans which shows in his work. More particularly, this book is now very dated, because it relies almost exclusively on German sources, the Soviet archives being closed for all practical purposes to western writers at the time.

    I would recommend as an alternative the works of David M Glantz which have been published over the last decade or so, in particular his most recent:

    Colossus Reborn: the Red Army at War, 1941-1943, University of Kansas Press, 2005

    And, based on favourable reviews, I have just ordered the following from amazon:

    Ivan's War: The Red Army 1939-1945, Catherine Merridale, Faber, 396pp, £20 (but £12 from amazon.co.uk)

    I must say, finally, Deng, that I find your abusive writing style totally unacceptable and I think you should learn a few manners before you post again. The same applies to your buddy MaxPower, who uses almost idential words and holds views so close to your own that you cannot see the gap.
     
  18. DengXiaoPing

    DengXiaoPing Discharged

    If he is right wing and still says the Soviets did the most dosent this mean they did the most
     
  19. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    (DengXiaoPing @ Oct 23 2005, 01:47 PM) [post=40476]If he is right wing and still says the Soviets did the most dosent this mean they did the most
    [/b]

    Indeed, but it is also important to note that he is not the best source.
     
  20. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    (DengXiaoPing @ Oct 23 2005, 02:47 PM) [post=40476]If he is right wing and still says the Soviets did the most dosent this mean they did the most
    [/b]

    There you go again, latching onto anything that agrees with your opinion. What it means is that that was his opinion, not that his opinion is a fact, even if it does agree with yours.

    No human wave attacks you repeatedly tell us.

    </div><div class='quotemain'>When Nazi Germany attacked Soviet Union, the Soviets used the tactic against both advancing and entrenched enemy soldiers. Usually the Red Army soldiers were told to charge directly in a wide berth to strike every possible point in the German lines. In some battles the Soviets defeated the Germans after sustaining battle losses equal to or more than the German losses. However, in the Winter War, the Soviets found out the hard way that the attack coupled with a "no retreat" policy is highly vulnerable to the motti countertactic, where the attacking party is surrounded and sieged.[/b]

    Link

    </div><div class='quotemain'>Wilker was a veteran of Stalingrad and had witnessed Soviet attacks like this before. He personally held out against 14 human-wave attacks. The fighting was very similar to that at Stalingrad, with the Soviets seemingly unconcerned by their heavy losses. Wilker commanded a battalion of Hitler Youth and Volkssturm, augmented by Gottlieb's soldiers and newly arrived paratroops. The Soviet tanks halted when they entered the minefield and began to reverse their course. Wilker's boy soldiers attacked the remainder with Panzerfausts and Molotov cocktails. Still, the German defense buckled. Konev's weight of numbers--rather than any grand strategy--was winning the day.[/b]

    Link

    </div><div class='quotemain'>The attack across the Oder on to the Seelow heights begins at 5 a.m. on 16 April. Zhukov calls the confrontation the Red Army's "final hour of vengeance”. However, the offensive is poorly executed, takes longer than expected, and results in heavy casualties.

    Over one million shells are fired against the German positions in one of the largest artillery barrages in history. The barrage is followed by human wave onslaughts of Soviet troops. After three days and the loss of 30,000 Red Army soldiers the German line is broken. [/b]

    Link

    And Link

    As well as the books:-

    Hell's Gate By Douglas E. Nash
    The battle of the Cherkassy pocket
    RZM Imports, 2001
    ISBN 0965758435

    Carnage and Culture : Landmark Battles in the Rise to Western Power
    by Authors: Victor Hanson
    Released: 27 August, 2002
    ISBN: 0385720386

    All mention the Soviets using human wave attacks many times, due to either bad leadership or desperation and the important point to note is that they cover the whole of the war, so although there were improvements in tactics through experience, as you would expect, when in a corner or when things weren't going as planned, they reverted to type and just pushed troops towards the enemy in an attempt to overwhelm them..... all the way to Berlin.

    Combine that with the fact that they commited as many if not more atrocities than the Japanese and Germans, and were assisted by lend lease, your assertions that they held the moral high ground, won the war by themselves and always used the best tactics don't seem to hold water.

    For the size of the country, in comparison to others who did a lot more, their contribution, although not insignificant, wasn't as great as it should be.
     

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