Thomas W. Murray service ww2

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by Rundtinden, Apr 1, 2017.

  1. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Looking for information on Thomas William? Murray Born in Preston. He was aboard the Norwegian steamer Songa when it was torpedoed by a German submarine in January 1940. According to himself in an interview with a local Irish newspaper he had been torpedoed (at least) twice in ww1, aboard the Cymric and the Laurentic. Can anyone confirm this? Searching the national archives I found him on some other ships crew lists (1915) : Bohemian, Cymric, Empress of Britain, Manistee, and from his own words in an Australian paper: Worchestershire and Huayna. The last two before the war. He also appears in a 1912 Marconist magazine, changing from Merion to Empress Queen. According to the archives he got the Mercantile marine ribbon, the British medal ribbon and the British medal in ww1. In ww2 he got the war medal. Appreciate any information. Time of birth, time and cause of death. What ships, if any, did he serve on during ww2. Pictures etc.

    Svein Korsvold
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    UK, WWII Medals Issued to Merchant Seamen, 1939-1945
    Name: Thomas William Murray
    Birth Date: 10 Apr 1889
    Service: 1939-1945
    Medal Issued/Claimed: 1946-2002
    URL: http://discovery.nationalarchi...

    Reference: BT 395/1/70874
    Description:
    Medal listing of Murray, Thomas William
    Date of Birth: 10 April 1889
    Date: [1946-2002]
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Legal status: Public Record(s)
    Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
    Access conditions: Open on Transfer


    UK, Campaign Medals Awarded to WWI Merchant Seamen, 1914-1925
    Name: Thomas William Murray
    Birth Date: 1889
    Birth Place: Preston
    Year Issued: 1914-1925
    URL: http://discovery.nationalarchi...

    Medal Card of Murray, Thomas William Place of Birth: Preston Date of Birth: ... | The National Archives


    England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
    Name: Thomas William Murray
    Registration Year: 1889
    Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
    Registration district: Preston
    Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
    Inferred County: Lancashire
    Volume: 8e
    Page: 596


    T W Murray in the Liverpool, England, Crew Lists 1861-1919
    Name: T W Murray
    Age: 25
    Birth Year: abt 1888
    Birth Place: Preston
    Event Date: 1913
    Port of Registry: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
    Ship Name: Huayna
    Official Number: 102096
    Reference Number: 387CRE/430
    32168_100000_1444-00152.jpg


    From a family tree:
    [​IMG]

    We really need one of our naval members to provide you with the direction you need to go in to find his detailed records, hopefully one will be along to help out

    TD
     
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  4. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hello and welcome,

    I have him on ADRIATIC on a voyage April 1919 and December 1919 and also many voyages in 1917 and 1918.
    I also have a photo of him in 1919 from the Fourth Register of Seamen.
    He also served on IBERIAN 22.12.1914 - 31.1.1915.

    For his WW2 service you would need to obtain his Form CRS 10 - from January 1941. It should be held at Kew in piece BT 382/1297
    Best obtained by visit to Kew or via a researcher. We have two members who will copy files at Kew if you are not able to go yourself.

    To prove that he was on CYMRIC and LAURENTIC when lost in WW1 you would need to check both Crew Agreements. For CYMRIC official number 106898 you would need to contact The Maritime History Archive in Canada. To place an order for copies of crew agreements from the Maritime History Archive's collection simply send the following information to mha@mun.ca.*
    • Vessel Name
    • Official Number (if known)
    • Years to be copied. (Crew agreements are filed by the year in which the voyage terminated in a British port).
    • Indicate whether you want the entire agreement copied or just the particular pages where an individual's name appears.
    • Please include your name and full mailing address.
    For LAURENTIC official number 127959 try the same address they don't appear to have the Crew list linked but may not have it indexed yet.

    Send me a private message and I will send on the photo of him in 1919.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  5. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Thank you both! I think you are right. I suspected the date of birth to be april 10. Any idea why he got the war medal in ww2? I downloaded the medal card from the national archives, but there are no details on service etc. The medal card from ww1 is more informative. The reason for my interest is a research I am doing about an early resistance group in Bergen, Norway april-august 1940. This group is mentioned in quite a few books, and my father was part of it. The identity of the participants is well known, except for one "Thomas Murray" Englishman or American. He came apparently from nowhere, helped them with wireless communication and codes for transmitting information on German forces to England, and disappeared. To my knowledge he has never been identified. Most authors thought he was British naval intelligence. He is described as a huge man, with old injuries to the neck and to one of his arms. He claims to have been torpedoed several times during ww1. Between the wars he worked in the US for the federals tracing gangsters. All in his own words. When i saw one "Thomas Murray" on the Songa crew list i began to suspect he is the same man. S.s. Songa was owned by a company from Bergen, and according to old local newspapers the crew were shipped home in february/march 1940 after being torpedoed on January 22. So he might well have been in Bergen when the Germans attacked on April 9. An old letter from a Norwegian archive states that he was taken to Shetland by a fishing vessel later that summer together with Villiers and Stoddard from the British Convoy office in Bergen. I also found an article from a Australian Newspaper in 1941. Must be the same man: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139904471. Looking for any information on this fascinating character and evidence on his presence in Bergen 1940.

    Svein
     
  6. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    According to a family tree :
    Arrival 14 Aug 1918 • New York,

    AddressSep 1921 • 2603 Biggs Avevue, Brooklyn, NY
    91 East Parade / 3004 Atlantic Avenue, Atlantic City

    Arrival 19 Dec 1938 • Florida, USA

    Belize and British Honduras are also mentioned as places he was in.


    He is shown as being in Birmingham, England when he died:
    Name Thomas Murray
    Birth Date abt 1889
    Date of Registration Dec 1948
    Age at Death 59
    Registration district Birmingham
    Inferred County Warwickshire
    Volume 9c
    Page 396

    But I would suggest that this needs further investigation to see if it is him, a copy of the certificate may provide the name of his wife if she registered the death. Have checked to see if there was any details of his wife and it seems she died in the Liverpool area which I would expect, so I do not think the above death details for Thomas William are correct.
    Name: Agnes Annie Murray
    Birth Date: 7 Apr 1897
    Date of Registration: Nov 1990
    Age at Death: 93
    Registration district: Birkenhead
    Inferred County: Cheshire
    Volume: 37
    Page: 830



    There is also another photo of him - I will leave it up to you to see if the 2 photos are of the same person
    Thomas William and Annie Agnes with Claire and Thomas Anthony
    [​IMG]

    TD
     
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Seems they married in York

    Thomas W Murray in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
    Name: Thomas W Murray
    Spouse Surname: Hannon
    Registration Year: 1915
    Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
    Registration district: York
    Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
    Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding
    Volume: 9d
    Page: 171
    Records on Page:
    Name
    Gertrude Elmer
    Annie A Hannon
    Thomas W Murray
    Charles Nacey

    TD
     
  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    There are some other possibilities for his death below - although this is not an exhaustive list

    (Thomas W Murray abt 1889 Sep 1935 Medway Kent ) cant be him as our man served in WW2

    Thomas W Murray abt 1889 Jun 1949 Leeds Yorkshire West Riding

    TD

    edited: as in red above
     
  9. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    I read in an old Marconi magazine that his wife, only referred to as mrs Murray, was a nurse for the Red Cross on the Italian front in 1915. She supposedly got a medal from the Italian government for her accomplishment. Found this grave in Preston. Can this be him?
    Grave Site of Thomas William Murray (-1943) | BillionGraves
    Svein
     
  10. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    The War Medal is a campaign medal generally awarded if the service period qualified for one of the Stars and if terminated by death, disability due to service or capture as a prisoner-of-war.
    A merchant seaman had to have served a minimum of 28 days at sea.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Here she is - Annie Agnes Murray - also has links to USA so ties in possibly with Thomas's time there

    Search results | British Red Cross

    Mrs. Annie Agnes Murray

    FORENAME:
    Annie Agnes
    SURNAME:
    Murray
    ADDRESS:
    20 York Tce., New Brighton, Staten Isld. New York
    COUNTY:
    N/A
    AGE WHEN ENGAGED:
    29 years
    CHARACTER:
    N/A
    SERVICE FROM:
    12/04/1915
    SERVICE TO:
    10/04/1919
    HOSPITAL:
    Red Cross VAD Hospital, Ockbrook; Brook House, Levenshulme ; The Tower, Rainhill ; Victoria Hospital, Council Street, Stretford; Training College, York
    PREVIOUS ENGAGEMENT:
    N/A
    RANK AT ENGAGEMENT:
    Trained Nurse
    DATE OF ENGAGEMENT:
    12/04/1915
    PAY AT ENGAGEMENT:
    £1.1.0 per wk
    RANK AT TERMINATION:
    Trained Nurse
    DATE OF TERMINATION:
    10/04/1919
    PAY AT TERMINATION:
    £1.4.10 per wk
    PARTICULARS OF DUTIES:
    N/A
    WHOLE OR PART TIME:
    N/A
    ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
    Address crossed out: 91 East Parade, Heworth. V.A.D. Hosp. Ockbrook, Derby Aux. Mil. Hosp. Brook House, Levenshulme. Tower Aux. Hos. Rainhill, Lancs. Victoria Aux. Hosp. Stretford. Training Coll. Hosp. York.
    DEPARTMENT:
    T.N.Dept.
    COMMISSION:
    T.N. Dept.
    CERTIFICATE NO:
    N/A
    HONOURS AWARDED:
    N/A


    TD

    edited to add:
    She may or may not have been eligible to one or more of these medals
    Medals and badges | British Red Cross
     
  13. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Interesting. Looks like he disappeared some years before boarding the Songa. Found a notice in an old paper: The morning news, Wilmington Delaware August 3, 1938: "For two months Mrs. Annie Agnes Murray had been trying to have her husband, Thomas William Murray, declared legally dead but today the cie was indefinitely adjourned in Surrogate's Court."
    Strange.
     
  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    More on Annie Agnes
    Annie Agnes Hannon
    1886–1976
    BIRTH 25 MAY 1886 • Tipperary, Ireland
    DEATH DEC 1976 • Darby, Delaware, Pennsylvania, United States of America
    [​IMG]

    Military
    1915 Bar of distinction for service on the Italian Front
    Military
    Wore Pin: Voluntary Aid Detachment
    Military
    Awarded the George V medal
    Military
    Awarded the British Red Cross-Order of St. John
    Military
    Awarded medal--British Red Cross Society
    Military
    Awarded British War medal ribbon

    It seems she took USA Citizenship in 1951
    Naturalization 14 Aug 1951 • Washington, D.C

    TD

    edited to add
    TD family tree ref - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/86315058/person/46539863712/facts
     
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  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Annie Agnes Murray

    Immigration
    27 Aug 1920 • Ellis Island (USA) , shown as immigrating from York, England on the ship "BALTIC". Port of departure was Liverpool, England

    TD
     
  16. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Amazing. Thank you! This raises more questions. When, why and where did he stay in the late thirties. And what happened to him after he survived the Songa sinking. I assume he is the person I am looking for. In Norway he told other members of the group that he had been employed by the federal government in the US after ww1. Tracking down smugglers etc. Found the name" Thomas William Murray" in a publication on former spesial agents of the FBI. Any way of finding out if this is our man?
    Regards
    Svein
     
  17. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Svein

    You are starting to move outside my sphere of information now

    TD
     
  18. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    He is also supposed to have been teaching wireless operators in the British army around 1904. Maybe there is an army service record? According to one scource this character also stated he had been wounded doing service aboard a QE class Battleship during the Dardanellenes campaign. In his own words he served as second radio officer. Is this possible?
    Svein
     
  19. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Svein

    I think you might need to draw up a timeline for him, as he seems to be everywhere at once. If he was born in 1889 then by 1904 he would have been 15 years old so very much doubt he would have been teaching anyone, anything. There is no record of an Army service record for him, it may be that he had one but is now part of what are called "The Burnt Documents" as is my Great Uncles.

    I would suggest you follow Hughs advice in post #4 and obtain actual factual information. Once you have some idea of which ships he was on then you can find out where they were and when which written into a timeline will help you solve your problem.

    Also if his wife was in the USA between April 1915 and April 1919 I am struggling to understand how she would have received "1915 Bar of distinction for service on the Italian Front", as no real fighting took place in Italy in 1915 until after April ?????
    "In the early stages of the war, Allied diplomats courted Italy, attempting to secure Italian participation on the Allied side, culminating in the Treaty of London of 26 April 1915 in which Italy renounced her obligations to the Triple Alliance.[8] On 23 May, Italy declared war on Austria-Hungary" from - Italian Front (World War I) - Wikipedia

    Also note that they married in the last quarter (Oct/Nov/Dec) of 1915 in York, England and yet much of the information points to Annie being in New York and Thomas possibly being aboard a boat somewhere - I feel there are some possible false trails here, so be careful, and work with facts, not hearsay

    TD
     
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  20. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Timeline Thomas William Murray
    10.april 1889: Born in Preston UK - From his CR10 card. Dis A nr:908377
    1913: Aboard the Huayna - T W Murray in the Liverpool, England, Crew Lists 1861-1919
    22.12.1914 - 31.1.1915: Aboard Iberian - National Archives
    12.02.1915 - 14.03.1915: Aboard Cymric - National Archives
    15.03.1915 - 20.04.1915: Aboard Manistee - National Archives
    22.04.1915 - 21.05.1915: Aboard Bohemian - National Archives
    23.05.1915 - 18.08.1915: Aboard Empress of Britain - National Archives
    1915: Married to Annie Agnes Hannon
    From Magazine Wireless world March 1917:
    Many of our readers will be interested to read that Mrs. Murray, wife of Mr. T. W. Murray, senior operator on an important liner of the R.M.S.P. Company, has been decorated with the Bar of Distinction by the Italian Government for service on the Italian front. She was serving there with the British Red Cross during 1915
    1919 April and December: Aboard Adriatic - Source: Hugh Maclean
    03.08.1938: Annie Agnes Murray wants him declared legally dead - The morning news, Delaware.
    22.01.1940: On the Songa. Torpedoed by German sub. - Source: Uboat.net
    27.01.1940: Interviewed by several English newspapers. Claims he had been on both the Cymric and the Laurentic when they were sunk in ww1. - Birmingham Daily Post 29.01.1940
    March 1940: Local Norwegian newspapers states that the crew from Songa is being shipped to Bergen.
    9.april 1940: Germany invades Norway. In the following weeks what is decribed as a huge Englishman or American who calls himself Thomas Murray helps out the first resistance groups with wireless communication and codes. He states amongst others that he had been torpedoed on several occasions during ww1 and that he after the war worked for the federal government in the US. He left Norway in June on the fishing vessel Sjøglimt together with amongst others Commander Villiers and Stoddard. Both Royal Navy i presume.
    15.02.1941: Interview in The World´s News, Sidney. Summary: Worked in India, joined the Marconi company, Worchestershire of Bibbi line, Huayna, torpedoed/mined Laurentic - Cymric - Songa
    Death: 1948 Birmingham?
    Medals from medals cards in National archive. Both ww1 and ww2

    Questions: Why did he stay for such a short period of time on each vessel? Was this normal?
    What did he do between 1920 and 1940?
    I have ordered a copy of the maritime inquiry after the Songa sinking. I am also searching for documentation on their arrival in Shetland on the Sjøglimt. I am convinced he is the mysterious "Thomas Murray" from Bergen 1940, but any other ways to prove it?
    What did he do during the rest of WW2?
    Any living relatives?

    Regards
    Svein
     

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