Three Unknown Foot Guards Officer Graves South of Dunkirk

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by Drew5233, Jan 29, 2011.

  1. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    even more confusing ! I wonder what the CWGC know
     
  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Presumably CWGC (based on War Office ?) records would not reflect any acting ranks ? An officer acting at a higher rank in the field would have added the extra pip and therefore confused the identification.

    Did some senior warrant officers wear their version of service dress during the 1940 campaign ? Could this have led to mis-identification as officers ?

    I suspect that at the time the cemeteries were laid out, the memory of the return of the unknown warrior would have been fresh in the minds of those responsible and they would have erred on the side of 'Known unto God' rather than risk a mis-identification.
     
  3. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    From what I've read Rich, most BEF dead where reburied in local cemeteries from August /Sept 1940 up till mid 1942 by the local French authorities, obviously time and a lack of knowledge lead to many "unknows"

    Even with the army graves service some daft things happenned, one Dakota lost on market garden has a clean photograph of the named graves of the crew by the burnt out wreck with the RASC despatchers graves with them.

    Concentrated at Bergen-op-Zoom the RASC despatchers were all named with the RAF lads among them as UNKNOWN ! It is only recently due to a Dutch researcher that the RAF lads were accorded named graves !
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Presumably CWGC (based on War Office ?) records would not reflect any acting ranks ? An officer acting at a higher rank in the field would have added the extra pip and therefore confused the identification.

    Did some senior warrant officers wear their version of service dress during the 1940 campaign ? Could this have led to mis-identification as officers ?

    I suspect that at the time the cemeteries were laid out, the memory of the return of the unknown warrior would have been fresh in the minds of those responsible and they would have erred on the side of 'Known unto God' rather than risk a mis-identification.

    If it was a Warrant Officer in service dress it with no rank shown they stones would say Officer. The stones each ID a rank (Captain, Lieutenant and 2nd Lieutenant) so pips must have been seen on the uniform or something else to show the rank. The other oditity is they have given May for a general date of death.
     
  5. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    I have to concur with Drew, any WO, even a Guards WO would have been in BD and would have had at that time, his brass wrist badge on his sleeve

    as for May Drew, how many graves read 10-5-40 to 1-6-41 or suchlike ? I think whoever buried them just put MAY 1940 on most of the graves and it was only when the CWGC put permenant stones on did accurate ( ish ) dates for the known casualties come in.

    Imagine being a local tasked with picking up these bodies,

    " Une soldat anglais inconnu May 1940 "

    would have been the limit of your knowledge and probable interest after the first ten as well
     
  6. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    another thought, COMBE was killed with some HQ Company soldiers, could we find out who these were and if they are buried, what if COMBE was killed on the WAY to the beaches, not ON the beach and sufficiently close to Warhem to be taken to there at some point ?
     
  7. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    21st MAY 1940 : " LT E L GIBBS was transferred from NO4 Company to Command "

    The association of CAPTAIN with GIBBS comes from somewhere, was he appointed CAPTAIN in the field and put up the extra pip ?
     
  8. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Nothing to add in respect of the identification of these lads,but if the same protocol was in place here as at St Venant it would not have been left to the locals to make any decisions .At St Venant the bodies were removed from various temp graves whose positions were recorded on a form along with names and numbers,for those without tags or mutilated(or Both) descriptions (as best as possible) regarding teeth,hair colour estimated height build,clothing etc were all noted,with graves containing unknowns any `known` persons buried alongside are noted.This is often (but not always) accompanied by a intrim autopsy report.Examples of which are displayed in the book `In Search of Tom Rodgers`.

    Jim
     
  9. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    I have met several locals who's relatives initially colelcted and buried BEF dead but as you say there was often some Army Graves Service input in 1946 - 1947, I have met the Mayor of Warhem so I wonder if a records request to the Marie and a request to the CWGC would be of use ?

    Drew picked out a corker here, so close yet so far with people who could fit the bill, yet with no one who fits exactly what is on the graves !
     
  10. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    I have met several locals who's relatives initially colelcted and buried BEF dead but as you say there was often some Army Graves Service input in 1946 - 1947, I have met the Mayor of Warhem so I wonder if a records request to the Marie and a request to the CWGC would be of use ?

    Drew picked out a corker here, so close yet so far with people who could fit the bill, yet with no one who fits exactly what is on the graves !


    The input regarding the forms and paperwork were put together in 1942 by the French under German supervision..it would be interesting to know if any other such records survived?


    Jim
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The Lieutenant Coldstream Guards Could be either:

    Lieutenant Robert Tristram Combe :poppy:
    CWGC :: Certificate
    or

    Captain* Evans Llewellyn Gibbs :poppy:
    CWGC :: Certificate

    *Gibbs is listed in all my sources as a Lieutenant including the war diary entry for May below. He is also referred to as a Lieutenant in the diary when they mention his death. I can not find any ref to him ever being a Captain.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I suspect CWGC have got his rank wrong?

    I've just spoken to CWGC and they want everything in writing which I'm happy to do. Can someone prove my theory right that Gibbs was indeed a Lieutenant and not a Captain or vice versa without paying for his service records?

    I've checked the London Gazette and couldn't find him at all.
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    21st MAY 1940 : " LT E L GIBBS was transferred from NO4 Company to Command "

    The association of CAPTAIN with GIBBS comes from somewhere, was he appointed CAPTAIN in the field and put up the extra pip ?


    From CG History Appendices:

    Succession Roll, Pg 432:
    Evan Llewellyn Gibbs, 2nd Lieut. 30/08/1926, from R.M.C.; Lieut. 30/08/1929; Resigned 08/03/1930; Killed in Action 01/06/1940


    Record of Services, Officers, Pg 485:
    GIBBS, Evan Llewellyn
    Commission: RO [Reserve of Officers]
    2/Lt: 30/08/1926
    Lt:30/08/1929
    Capt: 10/05/1940 * see WD heading below

    Services:
    Mob (Lt.) 2 Bn 02/09/1939 ;
    Killed in Action BEF 01/06/1940


    Pages 46 & 52 where his name appears both mention rank of Captain.
     
  13. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    ...
    WAR DIARY OF THE 2ND BATTALION COLDSTREAM GUARDS FOR THE PERIOD 1.5.40 TO 11/6.40 WAS LOST DURING OPERATIONS WITH THE B.E.F.

    1940 June 1
    It soon became known that we were to withdraw to the beach and embark this evening.
    Our supporting Artillery also knew this and they were determined to use up every round of ammunition they could lay their hands on.
    The GERMANS now began in earnest to try and prevent our getting away.
    Ugly rumours kept drifting in of GERMAN infiltration round our flanks.
    The Carrier Platoon was therefore despatched to watch our Left Flank in the 3rd BRIGADE area by LES MOERES.
    By mid-day No. 4 Company were forced to withdraw slightly from the banks of the Canal.
    The whole countryside now being flooded, even if the enemy did cross he would be confined to the roads.
    At about 1400 hours it appeared that the Battalion on our Right had withdrawn in the face of opposition, and No. 1 and No. 3 Companies had to form a defensive flank on their Right.
    Lieutenant E.L. GIBBS Commanding No. 1 Company was killed about this time, as was 2nd Lieutenant C.A. BLACKWELL, the Signal Officer, who was attached to No. 1 Company.
    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    CWGC :: Cemetery Details
    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    CWGC :: Cemetery Details
    At 1600 hours we were informed that the position could be abandoned at 2200 hours, and the difficult task of getting this news to the Forward Platoons began.
    At 1900 hours the Adjutant led Battalion H.Q. back to the sea.
    At 2100 hours we were told that Zero Hour could be put forward to 2100 hours, and about the same time the news arrived that Major McCORQUODALE, commanding No. 3 Company had been killed, and also 2/Lieutenant R.D.E. SPEED, the remaining Officer in No. 1 Company.
    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    CWGC :: Cemetery Details
    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    CWGC :: Cemetery Details
    Lieutenant J.M. LANGLEY, the remaining Officer with No. 3 Company was also wounded, and only Captain BOWMAN the M.T.O. survived to bring out the remnants of No.s 1 and 3 Companies.
    No. 2 Company had up to now suffered less casualties but on the beach an unlucky GERMAN shell hit the head of this Company’s column.
    Several men belong to Company H.Q. were killed and Major E.T. WYATT and Lieutenant R.T. COMBE were mortally wounded.
    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    CWGC :: Cemetery Details
    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    CWGC :: Cemetery Details
    No. 4 Company which was the last out of the Line still had all its Officers and thus the Battalion reached the sea covered by the Carriers who took up a position on the DUNKIRK Canal until 0200 hours, when, in accordance with his orders, Lieutenant The EARL of DEVON abandoned his vehicles and immobilised them.
    The Battalion reached the beach a mile or two East of DUNKIRK Mole about 0130 hours, and joined several of the many long queues already waiting to embark.
    About half were fortunate enough to get off before dawn when the ROYAL NAVY ceased operating until the evening.
    Those left on shore were taken back into the sand dunes and ordered to dig in.
    During this day there was plenty of food, and fortunately immunity from enemy shells and bombs, though all round were remains of earlier bombardments.
    Shortly after 2100 hours the party was told to march down to the Mole and was soon on board H.M Destroyer “SABRE”.
    In the days that followed the remnants of the Battalion re-assembled at WALTON, near WAKEFIELD.
     
  14. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    Dear All,

    If I can summarise, correct me if you think I'm wrong :

    a) Graves cannot be Grenadiers

    b) Established precedent Coldstream Officer identified as Grenadier at Pecq

    c) One officer is RDE SPEED buried as UNKNOWN COLDSTREAMS LT

    d) Enough evidence to show that EL GIBBS was considered a Captain buried as
    UNKNOWN GRENADIER CAPTAIN

    e) RT COMBE is the sticking point, to me all evidence points to him being killed on the
    beach, was he killed on the way to the beach and close enough to be relocated to
    Warhem making him the THIRD OFFICER buried as UNKNOWN at WARHEM. Where
    are the other ranks killed with him buried if they can be named ? What other guards
    officer can possibly be buried here ?

    f) Precedent already in place for MCCORQUEDALE identification at this cemetery
    (what exactly did his original grave read )

    g) LT CA BLACKWELL is identified and buried here

    h) graves are dated MAY 1940, wheras casualties where killed on the 1st day of JUNE, this is easily explained

    Do you consider it worth my writing to the Marie at Warhem, as I said I have corresponded twice with them for permission for the DUNKIRK MARCH to pass through, and sleep in the village in 2000 and 2010 ??
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Speed was a second Lieutenant not a Lieutenant

    What evidence points to Combe being killed on the beach?
     
  16. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    In the diary extract posted by DFB above it states beach in the last RED enhanced paragraph

    mentioned here drew where is says COMBS AND WYATT hit on beach by shell WYATT is buried Dover

    One of the Warhem graves is marked as 2ND LT

    slightly off I know but do you know Signalman harold needs was identified in an unknown grave at Dover St James and that there are some unknown dunkirk casualties buried at Rochester
     
  17. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Courtesy of Geoff and his excellent Search Engine.

    CWGC records for GG and CG in date order


    http://www.********.co.uk/GreatWar/GrenadierGuards.html
    http://www.********.co.uk/GreatWar/Coldstream.html


    Also attached a spreadsheet for Warhem which includes both alphabetical list of surnames as well as a table for grave reference order. This might help to show where some Unknowns are located, but as there is no plan attached in CWGC report for the cemetery, I am unable to ascertain the extent of each row - beyond the highest number given for a grave in each of the two rows.
    Guards are highlighted in red.
    Please also note the date of deaths - no clues to be gleaned from this either.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    god, awesome, I wish I could be that computer savvy !!
     
  19. jerrymurland

    jerrymurland Junior Member

    Thanks guys, that would seem to solve my little mystery.
     
  20. TijgerB

    TijgerB Member

    My experience with the British occupation of the Dutch East Indies and casualties is that I had to use the complete list of casualties for the British/Indian Army in WW2. As some of them is registred by cwgc as lost in Burma and one even between September 1939 - December 1947.
     

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