"Thunder Cross" : the anti-German nazis

Discussion in 'General' started by NoFlag, May 2, 2022.

  1. NoFlag

    NoFlag Member

    Hello there lads,
    I think WW2 often gets stereotyped into "black and white", "fascist vs. anti-fascist". As I'm sure we all know, the conflict and the politics surrounding it were far more nuanced than that.

    Case in point, I present to you the "Thunder Cross" organisation from Latvia. This group started as an ultranationalist political party during the 1930s. Their rhetoric had many similarities with the Nazis in Germany, for instance:

    -they advocated a "volkisch" racist ideology of "Latvia for the ethnic Latvians"
    -they were vehemently anti-semitic
    -they rejected the notion of national minorities getting any sort of autonomy, and used rhetoric that claimed such "foreign elements" were subverting Latvia and should not be included in the new nation that they wanted to build
    -they advocated an authoritarian government (although in this case it was corporatist in nature and perhaps closer to Mussolini's Italy than Hitler's Germany)
    -Similar to guys like Himmler, the "Thunder Cross" had leaders who were interested in resurrecting a "native" Latvian neo-pagan religion, partly inspired by Arianist ideas, to replace the "semitic" influences of Christianity. Indeed, their name "Thunder Cross" is a reference to the swastika, which was one of their party symbols.

    However, part of their Latvian ultra-nationalist platform involved a strong anti-German sentiment, inspired due to the history of German colonisation of Latvia going back to the medieval period. Thus, this group was initially opposed to Nazi Germany and did not envision their Latvia cooperating with Hitler.

    By 1934 this group was estimated to have around 6000 members, so it was always a fringe party in Latvia. In 1934 they, along with other political parties in Latvia, were banned as part of a new government crackdown on dissent (Latvia at the time was not what we'd call a functioning democracy).

    However, "Thunder Cross" continued to exist underground after this point, and after the Germans came and occupied Latvia its remaining members seem to have split in their approach to the occupation. Some willingly collaborated with the Holocaust, and published plenty of anti-semitic propaganda in Latvian. Others, however, retained their Latvian ultranationalist, anti-German views and instead joined the anti-Nazi resistance. They even used members of collaborationist Latvian organisations to gather intel on the Germans which would then be circulated through an underground anti-German newspaper called Brīvā Latvija. The participation of "Thunder Cross" members in the anti-German resistance eventually lead to their former leader, Gustavs Celmiņš, being arrested and sent to Flossenbürg concentration camp in 1944.

    If anyone's interested, there's an academic article on this group from brill.com titled "Latvia’s Pērkonkrusts: Anti-German National Socialism in a Fascistogenic Milieu".
     
  2. NoFlag

    NoFlag Member

    If anyone knows similar stories of far-right groups that opposed the Nazis during WW2, I'd be very interested to hear them :)
     
  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    I would assume any far right group or far left group would eventually go with the flow to ensure they controlled their one way views even if it meant sleeping with the enemy
     
  4. NoFlag

    NoFlag Member

    Well, in the case of "Thunder Cross", quite a few members (like Celmiņš) outwardly collaborated with the Germans and took jobs with the occupation authorities, but still conducted their underground anti-German activities and, as I mentioned, even used their contacts in the collaborationist cohort to gather info for subversive purposes. The historical enmity between Germans and Latvians was sufficient for even some Latvian "nazis" to be unfriendly toward their German occupiers.
     
  5. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    I would imagine to coin the phrase "nazis" in my eyes still evokes a hatred of a type of person or a way of life and the nazi would take actions to resolve this for their own gains
     
  6. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    ISTR the KKK opposed Hitler's Germany?
    Not that I think they're easily defined as 'National Socialist'. (Not that it's an especially easy to define thing. Or maybe a thing that too many want to redefine... )

    If a group is defined utterly by 'Blood & Soil' nationalist beliefs, then there's always going to be tensions with similar groups from without their own nation, isn't there?
    Convenience might dictate an acceptance of support/arms/political help from larger and more successful groups. Expediency and febrile political conditions create those sorts of relationships, but I'm sure members of groups like the above, the Iron Guard, Ustase, etc., were very often likely to privately despise any Germans, purely by virtue of them not being of their own nation.
    I can also see that distrust being magnified by the NaSDAP having such clear expansionist aims. Lebensraum could be a tremendously awkward concept for neighbouring 'similar' nationalists...

    Ploughing through that Kott article.
    Heavy going.
    Direct link for anyone interested:
    Latvia’s Pērkonkrusts: Anti-German National Socialism in a Fascistogenic Milieu in: Fascism Volume 4 Issue 2 (2015)
    Edit: Cross-post with LtDan above.
     
  8. NoFlag

    NoFlag Member

    Well yes, that's why the (German) Nazis were able to recruit some "Thunder Cross" members to participate in the anti-Jewish campaigns with them. But they clearly were never able to fully co-opt the leadership of this group, and in the end they decided to send Celmiņš and his associates to a concentration camp because he wasn't adequately towing the German line.

    Yes, that's the article I mentioned.

    Yes, that's a good point. The "lebensraum" and German colonisation plans of Hitler's Nazis definitely wouldn't have squared with the aims of the Latvian "Thunder Cross" group. And as you say, by being ultranationalist the "Thunder Cross" was really unlikely to approve of anybody outside their own nation, be they German or other.
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Not unreasonable example:
    Musso and Adolf claimed assorted diplomatic accords from standpoints holding various similarities, but I don't believe either party ever really liked or even respected the other.
     
  10. NoFlag

    NoFlag Member

    There was definitely suspicion, but I don't think it's fair to equate Mussolini's Italy with the "Thunder Cross" group. The former, whatever their disagreements with Germany may have been, still entered an open alliance with Nazi Germany from the outset of the war, on their accord (rather than being under any pressures of occupation). In contrast, the "Thunder Cross" connections with Nazi Germany seem to have only manifested after Celmiņš was forced in to exile and later when Latvia was under direct Nazi occupation. Italy seems to have been a more ready/willing partner of Germany than "Thunder Cross" was, in the latter case their cooperation with the Nazis was more by default than independent policy, and even when they did work with the Nazis they had leaders like Celmiņš who was working to actively undermine the Germans simultaneously. I'm not aware of Mussolini disseminating anti-German propaganda during WW2 the way guys like Celmiņš did...

    Brīvā Latvija (1943–44) - Wikipedia
     
  11. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    National Socialism was an original German patchwork ideology to achieve the broadest possible political impact.
    Extreme nationalism, anti-Semitism, racism, militarism, etc. can be found in varying degrees in practically all (mostly right-wing) extremist organisations worldwide - which is why there is a large overlap here. In this respect, it is often not possible to make a clear distinction.
    Therefore, there are also anti-Nazi/anti-German fascists, whereby the primarily nationalist aspect is often the decisive factor.
     
  12. NoFlag

    NoFlag Member

    This is true, however during WW2 the vast majority of Nazi and Fascist groups in Europe fell in line with Nazi Germany, often because of a shared enemy in either the Jews or the Soviet Union. As mentioned above, there were "Thunder Cross" members who collaborated with the Nazi occupation and the Holocaust, however "Thunder Cross" is the first far-right group during WW2 which, so far, I've found were also engaged in anti-Nazi resistance activities. I haven't found evidence so far for members of, for example, the Ustaše or the Iron Guard circulating anti-German propaganda during the war or having individual members engaged with active anti-German resistance networks.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Who did the thunder cross dislike as a nazi group ?
     
  14. NoFlag

    NoFlag Member

    "Thunder Cross" was primarily opposed to Jews, ethnic Germans, and ethnic Russians. But essentially they wanted to purge Latvia of anyone who wasn't an ethnic Latvian. There is a quote attributed to their leader Gustavs Celmiņš which says:

    "In a Latvian Latvia the question of minorities will not exist. ... This means that once and for all we renounce unreservedly bourgeois-liberal prejudice on the national question, we renounce historical, humanistic, or other constraints in pursuit of our one true aim—the good of the Latvian nation. Our God, our belief, our life's meaning, our goal is the Latvian nation: whoever is against its welfare is our enemy. ...

    We assume that the only place in the world where Latvians can settle is Latvia. Other peoples have their own countries. ...

    In one word—in a Latvian Latvia there will only be Latvians.
    "
     
  15. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Basic nazis then whether they opposed the german nazis or not
     
  16. NoFlag

    NoFlag Member

    Pretty much. That's why I referred to them in my opening post as the "anti-German nazis". They may have been anti-German, but they seem to have been essentially nazi in their outlook.
     
  17. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Great sorted, if it is a nazi looks like a nazi walks like a nazi its a nazi
     
    Andsco and ltdan like this.
  18. Andsco

    Andsco Well-Known Member

    Unless you're a Russian leader that is, then anyone you feel like calling a nazi is a nazi even if they're Jewish.
     

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