Tim's bought a Firefly. Research help needed.

What time frame, year wise are we looking at?

 

1945-46.

From http://www.4and7royaltankregiment.com/1943-1947.html

 

Kevin

Listed in what?

Cheers

Tim

 

A possible source for drawings, manuals, etc. http://www.archives.gov/dc-metro/college-park/

 

Weapons, Technology & Equipment
WW2 Militaria Collecting, Vehicle Names and Census Numbers



Hello Tim,

I have a spreadsheet listing Census numbers and vehicle names. Check the name listing mentioned in the header of this section of the forum. This is a name listing with census numbers where known along with any other details such as squadron, troop and unit. I have a separate census number spreadsheet which is where I have your Firefly census listed but that is all I have, sadly no other details, so far. I would be interested to know the U.S. number as that is fairly unusual to know US and UK numbers that were allocated along with any other markings you come across during your restoration. I will add GAUCHO to the current spreadsheet which hopefully will be updated on WW2T soon.

Cheers

Kevin

 

Kevin

The US Number is also known the paint is still legible... however, these can be calculated for any Sherman I'm told - you just need, the make, model and serial number - all of which are usually available.

The USA number for mine is - 3056683

More photos are available here:

http://www.afvregister.org/Downloads/M7B2/Brasschaat.htm

Look at the first Sherman VC listed - 3rd section down.

This will also give you other markings recorded at the time.

Tim

Weapons, Technology & Equipment
WW2 Militaria Collecting, Vehicle Names and Census Numbers



Hello Tim,

I have a spreadsheet listing Census numbers and vehicle names. Check the name listing mentioned in the header of this section of the forum. This is a name listing with census numbers where known along with any other details such as squadron, troop and unit. I have a separate census number spreadsheet which is where I have your Firefly census listed but that is all I have, sadly no other details, so far. I would be interested to know the U.S. number as that is fairly unusual to know US and UK numbers that were allocated along with any other markings you come across during your restoration. I will add GAUCHO to the current spreadsheet which hopefully will be updated on WW2T soon.

Cheers

Kevin

 

It appears someone else already researched the history of this vehicle and I've been advised as follows:

This vehicle was part of a UK Lend-Lease allocation in March 1944 of 104 M4A4s, Converted to a firefly in the UK, then allocated to the 21st Canadian Armoured Regiment (Governor General's Foot Guards) until struck off service on 13th July 1945.

So, it looks like research there is required.

If anyone can coroborate this I'd be most grateful.

Cheers

Tim

 

That makes a lot of sense. The 21st landed in Normandy in July 1944 and were active through the rest of the NWE campaign. How about contacting their museum in Canada? Bovington might also have some information but again they might just say contact the Canadians. I know that most Sherman files were disposed by Bovington back in the 1950s as surplus to requirements this including the all-important Key Cards! Disposal sounds alien to us but then so is using these valuable items as range targets....but that is not how it was at the time and is why these things are now so valuable!

 

Weapons, Technology & Equipment
WW2 Militaria Collecting, Vehicle Names and Census Numbers
Hello Tim,
I have a spreadsheet listing Census numbers and vehicle names. Check the name listing mentioned in the header of this section of the forum. This is a name listing with census numbers where known along with any other details such as squadron, troop and unit. I have a separate census number spreadsheet which is where I have your Firefly census listed but that is all I have, sadly no other details, so far. I would be interested to know the U.S. number as that is fairly unusual to know US and UK numbers that were allocated along with any other markings you come across during your restoration. I will add GAUCHO to the current spreadsheet which hopefully will be updated on WW2T soon.
Cheers
Kevin



Hi Tim,

Thanks for posting the link to your Firefly. I cannot make out some of the markings but it looks as though it was originally an A or 1st Squadron tank, possibly 1st troop. I have other GGFG names such as GERTIE from 2nd Sqn Sherman V.

Are you saying that all U.S. serials can be matched to British census numbers?

 

Kevin

Which marking indicates A Squadron and 1st Troop please - I've not noticed these?

US Serial Numbers can be calculated from the Tank's Serial Number.

There is unfortunately no way (to my knowledge) to work out the British Census number.

Cheers

Tim

Weapons, Technology & Equipment
WW2 Militaria Collecting, Vehicle Names and Census Numbers
Hello Tim,
I have a spreadsheet listing Census numbers and vehicle names. Check the name listing mentioned in the header of this section of the forum. This is a name listing with census numbers where known along with any other details such as squadron, troop and unit. I have a separate census number spreadsheet which is where I have your Firefly census listed but that is all I have, sadly no other details, so far. I would be interested to know the U.S. number as that is fairly unusual to know US and UK numbers that were allocated along with any other markings you come across during your restoration. I will add GAUCHO to the current spreadsheet which hopefully will be updated on WW2T soon.
Cheers
Kevin




Hi Tim,

Thanks for posting the link to your Firefly. I cannot make out some of the markings but it looks as though it was originally an A or 1st Squadron tank, possibly 1st troop. I have other GGFG names such as GERTIE from 2nd Sqn Sherman V.

Are you saying that all U.S. serials can be matched to British census numbers?

 

The Shaddock pdf suggests that the triangle and associated codes are related to the manufacturer or the shipment. It also looks like it's in an unusual position for a squadron sign.

G might be a regimental initial related to GGFG or perhaps it signifies a troop within the regiment, e.g. 3 Tp B Sqn would be the 7th troop in the regiment.

 

Yup... triangle and codes on the side are shipping data indicating tank supplied lease-lend in 1944.

 

I agree that the darker triangles may relate to shipping codes but how would the U.S. manufacturer know which regiment the tank was destined for? Especially if it was due for a conversion to a fIrefly? That is why I thought the "white" triangle was an A or 1st Squadron marking.

Cheers

Kevin

 

Are you seeing the white triangle on the Hull or Turret?

 

Hello Tim,

Congratulations on becoming the owner of a Firefly !. I have a 1/6th scale one and that is hard enough to find a home for. I do have a copy of the Sherman V Vehicle Pamphlet published in 1944 which includes Vehicle maintenance, Stowage details and Tools.
Unfortunately it has no details on armament but if you want to know anything about maintenance or where all the engine bits go let me know. The book is very tatty but I can scan some pages for you if you want.
If the Sherman survived the war in British hands then Bovington will have a record of it.

All the best,

Will.

 

Will.

Which doc do you have... I have several now but incase its oneidont haveit would be good to know and if not, a scan or copy would be excellent.

Is your model scratch built or kit?

Got any photos?

Cheers

Tim

 

Hello Tim,

It looks to be on the hull side. It is the photo on the right under the main photo. It looks like an A Sqn triangle to me. If I am wrong fine I just thought that is what it is.

Cheers

Kevin

 

Hello Tim,

The Pamphlet I have is Sherman V (M4A4) Vehicle Pamphlet AFVP/VP/4 published by the AFV School at Bovington in August 1944.
It is 8 1/2 inches by 5 1/2 inches and has 256 Pages. It is the training pamphlet for the tank crew and contains information about the engine and transmission systems, routine maintenance, stowage and tools and spare parts. I would liken it to a Haynes manual.
It has some good engine layout photographs and fault finding tips

My 1/6th Firefly is radio-controlled and made by Mark 1 tanks from Winchester. It is a ready made vehicle although it takes a lot of maintenance especially the tracks. It is battery powered by Golf Buggy batteries and wheel chair motors.
The UK Tank club website contains some pictures of it from Lambourn.

I hope you produce a Blog about how the restoration goes.

All the best,

Envious of Swindon.

 

Will

I had a look on the UK Tank Club website - found some photos - but not sure if they were yours or not... so perhaps a link or pic here would make it easier?

I like the idea of UK Tank Club... not sure I'd qualify for membership though as compared to most of the members, I only have the Firefly... I can see there are benefits collecting at the 1/6th scale!

Have PM'd you about a scan of your manual - this is not one I have (yet).

Cheers

Tim

 

Following up on the claim this vehicle served with the Canadian army - I have now managed to get hold of a copy of the original document from the Canadian Archives from which the assumption is drawn that the vehicle served with 21st Canadian Armoured... attached.

So... questions therefore.

Issued By: B Sqn 25 CDM ARMD DEL REGT CAC (Ex-21 CAR)

I assume Ex-21 CAR does indeed infer that this vehicle had been with 21st Canadian Armoured.

To: 264 Spec Del Sqn RAC

I assume RAC as Royal Armoured Corps - so would this be to return the vehicle to British Army stocks in the UK - if so, where was most likely?

In the Designation Section... what do these refer to:

AB 413
AFG 857
AFG 875

Lastly... on the second page,

Class is given as Class 1

Would this refer to the condition of the vehicle? Assuming if so that Class 1 is good... whereas Class 4 may not be?

Many thanks.

Tim