Understanding paperwork...help!

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Carolyn Shaw, May 8, 2020.

  1. Carolyn Shaw

    Carolyn Shaw New Member

    Hi there,
    I received my grandfather's ROS which was kindly annotated for me from the Air Historical Branch I believe way back in 2013 but I have up as it seemed so complicated and I could not find any information online that made any sense linked to his service records.

    We also recieved a letter with his records stating that under the Freedom of Information Act section 21 we were not able to know further details of my grandfather's records.

    I was wondering whether anyone has experience of this, and when I should ask again for information? He was born in 1920 and therefore should I be safe to say that we meet the criteria of section 40 and 41 to do with other people in the reports being over 100yrs old?

    The rest of his records are very confusing as it mostly logs his training but the only reference of a squadron is from a photo we have which was he was in 2804 Armoured Cars (pics enclosed). We know he was in Belgium as he told my mum stories about a family he stayed with that he wrote letter to, but he didn't tell many stories about the war.

    I have looked on these forums and found a little more about the squadron but I am not even sure if he would still have been with them on not from his records.

    Any help to decipher the information would be brilliant as I would love to tell my Mum more about what her dad did as well as my kids.

    His details are

    Denis M Rippon
    Flight Lieutenant (I think)
    Number: 1357182
    Joined up in 1940 in Blackpool No 9 Recruits Centre (went onto various training centres from there, first note of a squadron is the 2804)

    Thanks in advance.
    Carolyn
     

    Attached Files:

  2. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Hello,

    When the record of service was made it was part of a vast Central Registry with countless other records within the files recording every detail of the RAF.

    An Airmans/Officers ROS consisted of a number of individual Forms and related to the individual were included in the wrapper - all files relating to establishment were stored elsewhere in the Registry. The wrapper of the ROS contained a condensed index to all related files contained and elsewhere in the Registry.

    RAF formations were established to fulfil a role rather than army regiment style of local manpower holding. So only a small part of personnel served some time in a Squadron Unit - they were normally moved from unit to unit to suit requirements.

    Post war Parliament dictated what would happen to the paperwork of the Central Registry - most items would be destroyed after 5 then 10 years - a subset of high level policy, equipment and establishment records would be retained. In the case of ROS all of the individual forms would be destroyed and only the wrapper retained as this would suffice for pension purposes.

    Eventually the retained policy, equipment and establishment records were transferred to Public domain in The National Archives with the Personnel Records to follow after the 100 year rule.

    So the records created and retained were not done with the aim of providing a single chapter and verse on a service life in the words that a future family researcher could understand without prior knowledge of service setup.

    In a similar manner the AHB/RAF Personnel Department is setup to provide information to present serving/retired personnel.

    No good hitting them with a FOI if they do not have the reference files.

    The way to proceed is to use the ROS wrapper to read the retained files in the TNA.

    For the RAF Regiment Unit
    Search results: 2804 regiment | The National Archives

    All the other formations also have documents eg
    Search results: 9 Recruits | The National Archives

    The documents will rarely mention an individual by name but you have a better chance of an Officer - this will tell you were a unit was during the time your relative was stationed there and what role it was fulfilling.

    He did not enter the RAF as a F/Lt or stay as one during his whole service.

    Outside the paper documents of the TNA you can look at the Online London Gazette for the official notifications of his commission and promotions eg

    https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35940/page/1253/data.pdf

    This entry shows his OR service number and previous rank of LAC on commission

    How much you want to research is open to your needs but I bet there is more information available than you hoped to get from an FOI

    Post pictures of his ROS and members will help with fleshing out the outline it contains.

    Ross
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
    timuk and Tullybrone like this.
  3. Carolyn Shaw

    Carolyn Shaw New Member

    Hi Ross,

    Thanks so much for the quick and very informative response. I will start to look into the places you mention to try and see what more I can understand from his service.

    I guess I started with the ROS as I had no other information.

    Will get some photos on here and thank you to your community. Have a couple of other photos of him with serviceman so who knows it might be someone's relative or a photo they haven't seen before.

    Many Thanks again

    Carolyn
     
  4. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    With the current Covid situation you will be unable to examine the paper records in the TNA as they have not been digitized and put online.

    However a lot of the background information is on the web for the local theatre war situation he served in.

    Pre war aerodrome defence was seen as an additional role for armourer and other trades for UK RAF Stations and when operating as a field force this was to be provided by local army formations.

    Up until Feb 1942 the majority of this function was provided by army LAA batteries but as manpower requirements of other army functions grew the RAF was tasked with bringing this role within it's establishment.

    This led to the formation of the RAF Regiment LAA and ground defence units with the return of the Pre War middle east armoured car function for field support.
    RAF Regiment - Wikipedia

    RAF Armoured Car Company - Wikipedia

    Role was developed in the Middle and Far East theatre and incorporated into planning for the invasion of Northern Europe.

    The TNA catalogue for No.2804 Squadron RAF Regiment has them as a subordinate formation to No.85 Group.

    This wikipedia page gives a good overview of what this group did
    No. 85 Group RAF - Wikipedia

    So you can see how this fits with the family knowledge and get an appreciation of where it fitted into operational history.

    Regards
    Ross
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  5. Carolyn Shaw

    Carolyn Shaw New Member

    Here are the pictures of my Grandad's ROS and paperwork we were sent along with a couple of photos.

    Thanks for any help getting us started in finding out what kind of a role my Grandad had in the war.

    Carolyn
     

    Attached Files:

  6. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Parachute and cable section
    Stories of the Battle of Britain 1940 – Parachute and Cable — Battle of Britain | 1940 | history


    https://www.historylearningsite.co....-britain/the-attack-on-detling-airfield-1940/

    posted a few days after the devastating raid.

    The was happening a few miles away
    Heavy Luftwaffe raids on Manston and Ramsgate on 24th August 1940 leave the airfield unserviceable - History of Manston Airfield

    To give you an idea of what the activity of one squadron on Detling was on his first few days on the station look at No.500 Sqn ORB attached.

    You can see a crash on the aerodrome probably within sight of his post and how quickly the station had resumed operations while the bomb damage was being cleared.

    Ross
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  7. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

  8. Carolyn Shaw

    Carolyn Shaw New Member

    Brilliant, thanks so much for all this information, really helpful.

    Will get ordering!

    Carolyn
     

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