Uniform I.D.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Phil B, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Phil B

    Phil B Junior Member

    Can anyone help, please.
    I have a number of unidentified old photos passed down through the family showing servicemen in uniform.
    Does anyone recognise the uniform/regiments?
    regards
    Phil
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Philip Reinders

    Philip Reinders Very Senior Member

    1st one re capbadge?
     
  3. Combover

    Combover Guest

    The one in the middle is 1940 pattern BD, which came into use in 1942. Only the British had these so we can safely assume it is a British regiment. The FS cap puts him at about 42/43. Regiment unkown.

    ETA the cap badge in the first appears to be Royal Engineers. The uniform is far eastern pattern so could be Junlge Greens or dyed Khaki Drill. India / Burma is best bet.
     
  4. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    The Victorian lance corporal on the right has been intriguing me - the problem is the lack of detail in the uniform buttons and the shoulder titles being obscured.

    The photographer (Monsr. Louis) was at the address shown in the 1870s and 1880s but I can find no mention of his work after that time; the white facings point to the period immediately after the 1 May 1881 Childers reforms (carrying on the earlier Cardwell reforms), under which all Welsh and English regiments were supposed to adopt white facings. These universal white facings were relatively short-lived as there was a public outcry against the idea (even letters in the Times) and some regiments had reverted to former colours within a few years.

    He has a GS belt buckle with the usual lion over a crown, long-service/good conduct stripes (two indicates between 5 and 12 years), a marksman badge and a distinctive medal ribbon which I am still looking into.

    If only the buttons were clear . . .
     
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  5. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    The medal ribbon is the India General Service medal issued between 1854 and 1895: ribbon 32 mm, three crimson and two dark blue stripes of equal width.
     
  6. Phil B

    Phil B Junior Member

    Hi 4/7 RDG,

    Thanks, I'm amazed you can get that much information from the photo.

    By the way, forgive my ignorance, what does GS stand for?

    Phil
     
  7. Phil B

    Phil B Junior Member

    Hi 4/7 RDG,

    Thanks, I'm amazed you can get that much information from the photo.

    By the way, forgive my ignorance, what does GS stand for?

    Phil

    I've worked out GS to be General Service?
     
  8. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    That's right . . . and sadly the buttons are probably bog-standard GS type as well.

    Without being able to see the shoulder titles the trail goes cold.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    I think the medal is more likely to be the Indian Mutiny Medal (1857-58), rather than the India General Service medal. Either way, it shows he had served at least 10 years in India, the length of a normal tour.

    I have rendered both medals into greyscale for comparison; the General Service medal, the first, looks too dark:
     

    Attached Files:

  10. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    I discounted the Mutiny medal on the grounds of it being too early - he would have needed over 23 years' service to have that award and still be in post-1881 uniform and photographed at around that time. He just doesn't look old enough. Even under the old 12-year minimum enlistment his time would have expired and under the Cardwell reforms it was more like 6 years with the colours and 6 on reserve.
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    As he has two Good Conduct stripes on lower left arm that means he has more than 6 years service but less than 12 years, as then he'd have 3.
     
  12. Phil B

    Phil B Junior Member

    Guys I'm confused about the Victorian Lance Corporal.

    I would say his age is 30ish. If you agree, what would that make his approximate birth year to be?

    I could then try to match him to a possible ancestor born about the same time.

    If I found a name that fits the timescale, how would I then find his possible service record?

    Thanks
    Phil
     
  13. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    The uniform he is wearing is not post-1881; it of the 1870s. He is wearing the dress tunic also seen in the photo of the recruiting sergeants taken in Westminster in 1877 by John Thomson.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    If I am not mistaken there appears to be a crossed rifle badge above the good conduct stripes.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  15. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    Phil needs to have a definitive answers and this thread is in danger of degenerating into a "Yes it is/no it isn't" scenario.

    I suggest that the facts speak for themselves; to support my case I offer a number of pieces of evidence:

    First this image of No 1279 Private John Harvey, born in 1867 at Exeter, who attested with 2nd Battalion Devonshire Regiment on 15 July 1885 who I would suggest is wearing an identical seven-button tunic with plain, white undecorated square cuffs (known as jam-pot cuffs) introduced in 1881:

    Second, this statement from an expert on the Victorian Wars Forum:

    I agree with your original assessment of the uniform as a post 1881 pattern for infantry of the line with the white facings that were allotted to non Royal English and Welsh regiments. Uniforms of the 1870s had patches of facing colour on the forepart only of the cuffs that were traced with a tre-foil lace arrangement. The undress pattern had less buttons (5) and a single loop.

    Third, this photograph of a British infantry soldier and a colonial soldier taken in 1881:

    Lastly, this image of the re-enactment group The Diehards, who present the uniforms of a British regiment on Home Service in 1886:
     

    Attached Files:

  16. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    Phil needs to have a definitive answers and this thread is in danger of degenerating into a "Yes it is/no it isn't" scenario
    There are times when definitive answers are not possible.

    The photo I posted above was taken in 1876 or 1877 when Thompson was taking photographs for his publication on London Life. It is a well know photograph and there are many copies on the Internet. The date is well attested, as you can see from the copy at the Victoria & Albert museum. The recruiting sergeants are from different regiments.

    Recruiting Sergeants at Westminster, 1876-77 (woodburytype) by Thomson, John (1837-1921) - Bridgeman Art Library
     
  17. zerostate

    zerostate Senior Member

    Phil needs to have a definitive answers and this thread is in danger of degenerating into a "Yes it is/no it isn't" scenario.

    I suggest that the facts speak for themselves; to support my case I offer a number of pieces of evidence:

    First this image of No 1279 Private John Harvey, born in 1867 at Exeter, who attested with 2nd Battalion Devonshire Regiment on 15 July 1885 who I would suggest is wearing an identical seven-button tunic with plain, white undecorated square cuffs (known as jam-pot cuffs) introduced in 1881:

    Second, this statement from an expert on the Victorian Wars Forum:



    Third, this photograph of a British infantry soldier and a colonial soldier taken in 1881:

    Lastly, this image of the re-enactment group The Diehards, who present the uniforms of a British regiment on Home Service in 1886:

    No. 5 is definitely post 1881 - I posted on this on the Victorian Wars forum earlier this evening (hi 4/7 RDG - I think you may recognise me from there;) ) - I'm also not the only one to identify it as such.

    EDIT: I did post about the medal ribbon, but it was my viewing software causing a distortion - it looked like the dark stripes were much narrower. I can see they are not in different software!

    The uniform he is wearing is not post-1881; it of the 1870s. He is wearing the dress tunic also seen in the photo of the recruiting sergeants taken in Westminster in 1877 by John Thomson.

    The image was taken outside the Mitre and Dove public House, Westminster. You will notice that none have jampot sleeves; none have waist pockets; none have seven buttons... In fact they all have knot design cuffs, except the guy on the right with pointed cuffs - and he's not infantry anyway. That is not the same tunic.

    2nd EDIT: A little more digging on the image and I have: left to right the regiments of the recruiters are: 6th or Inskilling Dragoons; 14th the King's Hussars; Royal Engineers; Royal Scots Greys; 5th Dragoon Guards; 6th Dragoon Guards.
     
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  18. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    So, in a nutshell, PeterG's case rests on a spurious image taken in a different decade of totally dissimilar uniforms which are not even infantry? That he avoids comment on the uniforms with features identical to Phil's photo, datable to the 1880s period, in my last post is significant. I think people can decide for themselves about the relevance of that.

    Meanwhile I await a response from the National Army Museum regarding the uniform in Phil's photograph. I have also contacted the dedicated chaps in "The Diehards" for their comments.
     
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  19. Tab

    Tab Senior Member

    The first two pictures has a slouch hat looks like that from Australia, the Uniform is what was known as KD issue for the desert, as I wore it at one time, the badge looks like that of the RE. So it would appear that some of these photos during WW2 in the Western Desert where they were not so worried about odds and sods on uniform
     
  20. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    So, in a nutshell, PeterG's case rests on a spurious image taken in a different decade of totally dissimilar uniforms which are not even infantry? That he avoids comment on the uniforms with features identical to Phil's photo, datable to the 1880s period, in my last post is significant. I think people can decide for themselves about the relevance of that.

    My, my! Calm down dear.

    Peter :D
     

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