Unknown Hurricane Pilot, Mid May 1940, Belgium

Just in case others are wondering about how many other possibilities could be there for Hurricane fatalities in Belgium.. its limited to
For these dates:

Hurricane fatalities in Belgium (5)
RAF CWGC War Dead Query 1940-05-13

Runnymede (8)
RAF CWGC War Dead Query 1940-05-13

 

hi Flamula
Noticed no mention of Squadron Leader Patrick Gifford DFC of 3 SQU in unaccounted for, He was shot down in Belgium 16th may 1940 in HURRICANE P2825
I have been researching this pilot for more than 20 years and our research tell us he could have crashed in Ressengem Herzele and buried very quickly there, and then the body moved to CWGC Heverlee in 1954
As far as i can make out this could be the pilot have you any more information on this you can furnish me with.
thanks in anticipation.
Gordon

 

Gifford's CWGC record: Squadron Leader Patrick Gifford | War Casualty Details | CWGC
His Service No. was: 90188.

 

Yes thanks Davidi have all this info from over 20 years research I am looking for the information of what happened on the 16th May 1940 from the guys who possibly pulled this pilot from a burning hurricane
Thanks Gordon

 

Hi Gordon, he could certainly be a candidate for the event my Grandad witnessed, he's no longer with us I'm afraid so I've looked through all his paperwork again now and there's no more information other than the excerpt I transcribed earlier unfortunately. Anecdotally I can remember him telling me that they couldn't get near the plane straight after the crash as the flames were burning too fiercely. So potentially indicating there was a decent amount of fuel still onboard - but still that would be speculation.

Around the time of my prior post in the thread I had plotted a few points on Google Earth around the area roughly where my Grandad was active on those dates, and overlaid estimated locations of the corresponding known crashes, although nothing appeared to conclusively match up and there was a good bit of guesswork involved. Would certainly be interested to hear if you turn anything up. Best of luck!

 

Hi Flamula
Thank you for this i am trying to cross reference your grandfathers recollection and Rob Creasy's grandfather's
Unfortunately Mr Creasy has stopped returning emails even although have sent him my information and pictures of the pilot we think his Grandfather pulled from the burning hurricane, and not even a return thank you.

There is one or two differences your grandfather said it crashed and burned in woods, Creasy said in his Grandfather's story it crashed in a field. I have a picture of the wing lying in a field so i cannot say if this is the same incident.
If it crashed in woods i assume the whole plane would have burned and not left the wings

Also a German soldier retrieved the pilots flying log book and after the war returned it to Scotland it now is an artifact in Edinburgh Castle and unfortunately not burned whatsoever, which again tells me the whole plane did not burn.
So i do believe your Grandfathers Hurricane is not the one we are looking for and looks like Mr Creasy's Grandfather's. if only he would return my emails he maybe could tell me more and also what his Grandfather told him, but Hay Ho thats life.
I have been searching this Pilot for over 20 years. as my researchers have in Belgium, who I i have found to be very proud enthusiastic and appreciatating about the British Army and RAF who freed them from Nazi Rule.

My friends and fellow researchers in Belgium and i will continue our search and hopefully we will find the last resting place of Squadron Leader Patrick Gifford DFC
thank you again kind regards Gordon

 

from my collection Gifford panel from Runnymede Memorial

 

thank you

 

Yep, I had to assume that Mr Creasy's account was that of a different although very similar event due to his story, very coincidental with their being from the same unit, but there were a number of planes downed thereabouts and I would note that there were three individual sections of 232 RE operating in different locations and capacities at that point.It would be interesting to know which Section (at a guess, potentially 3 section) Mr Creasy was with.

So I've dug out the war diary for 232 RE to confirm general areas of operation in that regard:-

1 Section (HQ) were based at Mooregem and stayed in that area for the most part.

2 Section (my Grandad's section at that point) billeted at Boorsbeke and worked primarily filling craters in Alost (South Bridge)

3 Section were at Merchtem and spent most of their time clearing unexploded bombs from buildings near the road on the outskirts of that same village.

I've used the war diary spelling, they'll be updated map names now. Hopefully that may be of use to you!

 

Hi Flamula
After further research from my guys in Belgium we are of the same opinion this is the same incident
there is to much of a coincidence and with joining up the dots we reckon your grandfathers SGT was Ronny Creasy
and they both pulled this pilot from the craft/
If you can furnish me with anymore information it would be much appreciated
thanks Gordon

 

did you see my most recent post just above yours - where I itemised the war diary with the individual unit section locations? could well help you. That’s everything I can piece together for now - of course I will post anything new that comes to light here.

 

thanks

 

Flamula
With your permission could you tell me your Grandfathers name for my records this will not be used in any future publication without your permission.
I feel in the future and once we have confirmation that your grandfather was indeed involved in this incident
his bravery of going anywhere near a burning aircraft to try and save a fellow countryman should be recognised and his name should be added to a reprint of an already published book on the subject.
thanks
Gordon

 

Thomas R. Atkinson - at the time of the incident a sapper with 232 Field Company Royal Engineers (then billeted at Borsbeke).

I'm not entirely convinced this was the same incident as the details differ, but in my grandfather's account, once the flames had died down for them to get near enough they found the pilot out of the cockpit, his wrist pinned under the wreckage, which could account for the survival of his logbook (assuming it would be tucked inside his flightjacket).

Was Mr Creasy's relative's surname also Creasy? - as I can not find a reference to this name in the various lists of 232 RE personnel I have, my grandfather also mentioned a number of folk by name which I can recall, and to my knowledge there was never a Sgt Creasy mentioned.

Happy to speak to you if you want a chat to clarify anything I've mentioned here.

 

thank you
According to the German soldier Willi Rothenberg he removed the flying book from the hurricane not a body and he never mentioned in the letter he sent along with book that the body of the pilot still there.
we believe it is possible that ypur grandfather and SGT Creasy removed the body
and according to our research he was buried in a blanket and no identification on the body which we are finding quite unusual.
And yes Mr Creasy's Grandfather was a SGT Ronny Creasy and according to the grandson he was in 262 field company Royal Engineers
If my guys in Belgium .find anything else i will let you know
They have already identified the crash site and this has been confirmed by the local noble who lives on this land
thanks
Gordon

 

Did aircrew carry their logs on active service ? That would seem to be a colossal security risk. Were deceased aircrew logs not retained by the Air Ministry and then offered to families? Aircraft carrying a list of dates, operations and locations would have been a gold-mine for enemy intelligence. Perhaps more likely that airfields were over-run before all paperwork was destroyed ?

 

Thank Rich
You are correct, we do not know why but he did.
Willi Rothenberg by rights should have handed to senior authority but he held on to it for 4 years after the war
he eventually sent it back to Raf Cologne with a covering letter saying he hoped it would get back to the pilot which tells us the pilot was not in the aircraft. Raf Cologne sent it back to the CO George Denholm of 603 Squ and as there were no surviving family he sent it on to the United Services Museum Edinburgh Castle where it resides to this day
thanks