Upper Arno Valley - Pratomagno , July 1944.

Good evening,
I'm Lorenzo from Piantravigne (Florence). I'm writing a book about the history of my hometown during the XIX Century.
I know that unit of the 6th Armoured Division were in the area andh also I know that part of the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry Regiment was in the area (I looked in the diares) but it seems it wasn't the unit that entered in the town. The day of the liberations it's probably between 27th and 29th July as the priest wrote in his memory.

Do you know where I can find the other diaries of the units, as the 61st Brigade etc..?

Thanks in advance and Greetings from Italy,
Lorenzo

 

Lorenzo,

Welcome aboard.

There does not appear to be any mention of your small village here, not really a great surprise. There are a number of threads which mention Arno or Florence. On a very quick scan none stand out as possibles.

I did spot that Google refers to:

Link: Paint memories on canvas - Tours & Sightseeing

The format of Google could mean nothing, though a usable bridge would I suspect be significant.

One thread, from 2019, recommended seeking help from: Italy Star Association 1943-1945 – Official website of the Italy Star Association 1943-1945

If you look at the 61st Brigade's constituent formations each regiment (not battalion) should have a regimental history, a published regimental journal, so it is possible there is an explanation or story about the liberation of the area, not your village. Listed on: 61st Infantry Brigade (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

I have scrolled through the many threads for the 6th Armoured Division, none appear to cover the days you are interested in.

Finally does the list of liberated towns / villages on this website help: Arezzo tra Arno Tevere e Chiana Could mapping those near your village or highway help?

 

Hello David,

thank you for your precious comment. In the first link you posted (the touristic one) i think you catch a wrong part of the phrase because the so called "florentine bridge" is Ponte Vecchio bridge and not the Piantravigne's bridge (who was blow up by the germans during the retreat).
The date of the liberation of Piantravigne written in the interesting site "Arezzo tra Arno Tevere e Chiana" (which i already knew ) is on 26 july 1944, but the priest noted in his memories the 28 july as date of the liberation.

I have the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry Regiment diary of war of all july, but it doesn mention Piantravigne, only some observation point and troops movement in PERSIGNANO and CERTIGNANO. If you take a look of those villages on Google Maps they are extremly close to each other. It seems strange to me that the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry Regiment War diary never mention Piantravigne, also because the germans fired with an MG towards the tanks during the retreat from the village. After this very small attack the village was a little bit bombed with artillery, so there is must be something written about it.

I would like to read the war diaries of the 1 Derby Yeo related to august.. maybe you can help me find them? I have seen that in this nice forum there are a lot of War diaries in PDF.
Also, maybe looking for the war diaries of all the other units under the 61st Infantry Brigade can help me..
This is what Wikipedia says:
The 61st Infantry Brigade was constituted as follows during the war:

• 2nd Battalion, Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own)
• 7th Battalion, Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own)
• 10th Battalion, Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own)
• 1st Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps (from 6 March to 22 July 1945)
• 1st Battalion, Welch Regiment (from 29 June 1945)
• 2nd Battalion, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (from 19 July 1945)
• 1st Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment (from 19 July 1945)

I also looked in the Italy Star Association you linked, but i couldn't find the part related to the 61st Infantry Brigade...

I post a nice map of the zone, maybe things can get a little bit clearer. Piantravigne is extremly close to the Pratomagno Massif!!
I must discover who was the first unit who entered into my hometown!!

 

I found the map on the internet.. any better map is welcome

 

I think that it was 4 Indian Division who advanced into the Casentino.

Regards

Frank

 

Ignore me. Your town is on the wrong side of the Casentino.

F

 

Hello Lorenzo,

Can you post the page of the 1 Derbyshire Yeomanry War Diary for the dates you mention? There might be some map references (co-ordinates) which refer to Piantravigne.

Regards,

Vitellino

Edited to say that I think the diary you need is that of the 3 Grenader Guards.

 

I have the 2 Rifle Brigade WDs for this period (and 3 Welsh Guards but they are out of the line). In terms of contemporary grid references where is Piantravigne? They mention occupying Castel Franco and Faella on 29th July. Looking at the map these are further north than Piantravigne - so I assume this village was liberated before 29th July but the name isn't mentioned explicitly, at least not in their WD.

 

Hello Lorenzo,

Firstly welcome to the forum.

In terms of contemporary grid references where is Piantravigne?
Grid Reference: R 035495
From this map:
Italy, 1:100,000 GSGS 4164, Sheet 114 Arezzo (1943)

Richard

 

Good morning,
first of all thank you for your comments.
As soon i'll back home I'll answer to each one of you.
Btw I used the site "echodelta" with the "italian northern grid" WR for the coordinates.

 

Hello Vitellino,
thank you for your comment.

The memories of the priest says that .." on the 26th of july began the retreat from Piantravigne. They germans blowed up the bridge. On the 27th of july a small group of german paratroopers started firing against the british troops and tanks, and they allies started firing with artillery. The paratroopers, after the bombing, started the retreat. On the 29th of july there are a lot of tanks going throught the hills and the roads. They couldnt rush into the village because the bridge was blown up. After 12:00 o'clock the allies started bombing the village with the tanks. After some hours the first british troop entered the town (i assume without the tanks because of the bridge). On the 30th of july the german troops are still firing with artillery on castelfranco di Sopra and around that area".
Those are the "hot" days reported by the priest.

Here are the photos of the 1st Derby Yeo Regiment WD related to those days.. i used the site "ECHODELTA" for translate the coordinates: I used the Italian Northern Grid with the WR followed by the coordinates.
Based on the WD only on the 31th of july the 1st derby yeo troops went very close to Piantravigne while patrolling but went to CERTIGNANO. I remeber you that Certignano, Piantravigne and Persignano are extremly close to each other.
On the other days the WD never mentioned about the liberation of the village or the artillery fire against the german paratroopers as the priest said.. and i do not have the WD of August.
As Vitellino said maybe the WD of the 3 Grenader Guards can help me...

I need a big help!!

 

Hello Gary,

if you look at my last comment (where i answered to Vitellino) the priest said that on the 28th of july the first british troops entered into the village some hours after 12:00 o'clock.

On the last comment i said on the 29th, but i made an error. It's the 28th the correct date of the liberation!

 

I found this video of Piantravigne on YouTube.. it can help you guys to understand better the type of environment the allies had to face during WW2.

If you look on the left at 0:46 you can see very well the bridge that was blow up by the germans during the retreat.

 

Hello Richard,
Yes, that is the right sheet the 1st Derby Yeo mentioned in the WD with the coordinates! Thanks a lot!

 

If it is the

Okay, if it is the 28th July it definitely isn't 2 Rifle Brigade so it may be 7RB or 10RB. I also have the WD of 2 Coldstream Guards and it isn't them either.

Of course it may not be an infantry battalion at all - could well be Royal Engineers.

 

Hello Gary,
What do you mean with 7RB and 10RB? RB= Rifle Brigade?
If is it the Royal Engineers what and where can i look?
Do you mind upload the 2 Rifle Brigade and the 3 Welsh Guarda WD referring to this days i said before? It could be interesting.

 

2 Coldstream Guards



3 Welsh Guards



2 Rifle Brigade

 

Hi Loenzo,

Yes, RB = Rifle Brigade. 7RB and 10RB were the other battalions of 61 Infantry Brigade.

As you can see from the above the RB battalion was in the line during this period whereas the Guards battalions weren't. This would lead me to think the other two RB battalions are more likely candidates than 3GG.

 

I find difficult translate the 2RB WD page as i can not zoom.. do you mind sending it to my email? I'll write you in private.

 

Yeah, it could be very well. Do you know where I can find the WD of the 2 and 7RB? Also.. i am sorry, but what do you mean by "3GG"?