Vehicle Numbers - 141 R.A.C. (The Buffs)

Discussion in 'Vehicle Names and Census Numbers' started by Tom OBrien, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Another list of W.D. No's, this time for 141 RAC and found in the war diary of 30 Armd Bde Ordnance Field Park for July 1944 (WO171/30) as Appendices to a letter of 16 Jul 44:



    W.D. NO. Description. Total Vehicles held by 141 Regt. R.A.C. (The Buffs)

    REC.31705B )
    REC.68347B ) Churchill A.R.V. 4
    REC.68169B )
    REC.32032B )

    T.172514B )
    R.69135B ) Churchill I.V. (O.P.) 2

    T.68831B : T.32193B : T.32151B )
    T.68788B : T.32387B : T.32420B ) Churchill IV. 7

    T.172911B : T.172930B : T.172931B )
    T.172916B : T.172917B : T.173211B ) Churchill V. 6

    T.173264H : T.173265H : T.173266H )
    T.173152H : T.173262H : T.173267H )
    T.173183H : T.173153H : T.173269H )
    T.173157H : T.173151H : T.173271H )
    T.173155H : T.173156H : T.173272H )
    T.173285H : T.173154H : T.173270H )
    T.173282H : T.173278H : T.173161H )
    T.251648H : T.173167H : T.173162H )
    T.173176H : T.173168H : T.173274H )
    T.173177H : T.173169H : T.173275H ) Churchill VII. 56
    T.173178H : T.173170H : T.173276H )
    T.173179H : T.173172H : T.173277H )
    T.173180H : T.173281H : T.173163H )
    T.173181H : T.173283H : T.173280H )
    T.173182H : T.173284H : T.173166H )
    T.173174H : T.251651H : T.251652H )
    T.173173H : T.173185H : T.173187H )
    T.251649H : T.251656H : T.173184H )
    T.251654H : T.251653H.



    W.D. NO. Description. Total Total Already Scaled. Increase to Total.

    F.195601 : F.195673 )
    F.195687 : F.195528 )
    F.195928 : F.195924 )
    F.195918 : F.195889 ) Car, Scout, Humber Mk.I. 12 31 43
    F.195899 : F.195727 )
    F.195870 : F.195860 )

    I hope that is of use to someone.


    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
    KevinT and SDP like this.
  2. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Tom,

    Great info as always.

    I have 34 named Churchills belonging to 141 RAC but only 3 with census numbers in your post:-

    SANDLING T173174H
    SCOT T173283H
    SINNER T173267H

    T32151 also belonged to 7th RTR, 4th Batt Coldstream Guards and Ontario Regiment
    T68078B was IMP whilst with 9th RTR
    T68788B was also with 145th and 147th RAC between 1942 - 1943 in the UK
    T68831B was also with Calgary Regimemnt and 4th Batt Coldstream Guards

    I think i will add all the matches in an additional post.

    If anyone can add a name to any of the numbers please post.


    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  3. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member


    Thanks. Do you have dates when T.32151 was with 7 RTR and 4 Coldstream Guards? I’m interested in the recycling of damaged/broken down tanks back into operational inventories.


  4. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Tom,

    Coldstream Guards 1943
    7 RTR 1945

    Sorry i can't be more specific in this particular case.
    When i have checked all the numbers i will post any matches and put any dates i have if this helps.
    Many of the early Mk III's were moved within several of the Canadian Regiments many on a trials basis.


  5. Great list Tom!

    I noticed two oddities in the T-Nos of the Crocs (highlighted in Bold Red in the partial quote above):
    1. T.173177H appears twice. I suppose that the second one should read T.173277H instead?
    2. Should not T.183274H be T.173274H?

    The numbers are in almost complete sequence from T.173151 to T.173187, from T.173262 to T.173285 and from T.251648 to T.251656 with only a few gaps.
    Here are the only gaps in the three sequences, assuming the above two corrections are applicable:

    T.173158 : T.173263 : T251650
    T.173159 : T.173268 : T.251655
    T.173160 : T.173273
    T.173164 : T.173279

    I suppose that these 'missing' numbers could be either combat losses, reserve tanks or left in the UK for training purposes? Does someone have the number blocks of the first Crocodile orders for comparison?

  6. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Tom,

    Found another match T173179 was with 7RTR in 1945
    Hi Michel,

    I have one of the missing numbers, T173186, as belonging to 107RTR


  7. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member


    Thanks for the two corrections - yes, you were right both times and I've updated the original post to reflect that. I must dig out my reading glasses!


    Thanks for the additional 7 RTR number from 1945.


  8. Tom,

    You are easily forgiven, because you do provide us with priceless info time and again.

    I wouldn't say the same for the clerks who mistyped in the original documents, because it was their job to do it right (although the occasional shell burst in their vicinity may be construed as extenuating circumstances) :D

  9. Michael Nikov

    Michael Nikov Member

    For anyone interested, Braille Strike just released a set of decals for Churchill Crocodiles with several subjects from the 141 Regt RAC. There are available in both 1/72 and 1/35.
    serge69 likes this.
  10. Nice looking set of decals. There are however a few accuracy issues with them.

    The diagonal bar on the AoS Flash with Serial 993 should be from top left to bottom right, not from bottom left to top right as depicted, and the bar should stop just short of the digits, themselves not of the stencilled type. Example on IWM BU916:
    BU_00916 - Humber scout car 'STORK' AoS 993d=141 RAC, Le Havre, 12 Sep 44 [Wilkes].jpg

    SAVAGE: T-No is not T173613/H but T251516/H, repeated on the front left side of the trailer:
    SAVAGE - 1.jpg
    SAVAGE - 4 - T251516 - A70 182-9 - 1944-10-22 - Johnson - 01.27.jpg
    SAVAGE - 2 - T251516 - 65675056355 - 01.04.jpg
    SAVAGE - 3 - T251516 - A70 182-9 - 1944-10-22 - Johnson - 00.46.jpg

    SANDLING: the marking on the trailer towing arm is not T2926 but 29526 (MSN for 141 RAC), plus there should be a repeat of the T-No T173174/H on the front left side of the trailer, just like on SAVAGE's:
    SANDLING - 1 - 1368_02_093.jpg
    SANDLING - 2 - 1368_02_094 Churchill T173174-H.jpg
    SANDLING - 3 - 1368_02_097 Churchill Crocodile T173174-H.jpg

    There is also no evidence of a Sqn marking on the front or side of the turret on either of them, as depicted in the decals set.

    The marking on the rear of the trailer (on top left) should be the Fmn Sign (79 Armd Div) and not the AoS.

    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
    Michael Nikov likes this.
  11. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian Patron

    Why doesn't anyone think of 1/48? *Whimper*

    I know, low volume of kits etc for the scale
  12. Michael Nikov

    Michael Nikov Member

    Try contacting the owner - Clem has done some custom work for me and his prices are very fair.
  13. Michael Nikov

    Michael Nikov Member

    Thanks Michael. The AoS and 79th Division formation symbols can be can be interchanged and added - we made sure to include several duplicates. As for the AoS flash, this was based on the depiction of several Crocodiles from H&S and Heimdal publishers, but the AoS on Humber "STORK" looks fairly clear. Good news is that I have seen fairly few Crocodiles with the AoS.
  14. Just edited my post above to correct typo: SAVAGE is T251516/H, not 251546.

    Michael Nikov likes this.
  15. Michael Nikov

    Michael Nikov Member

    Great news! Braille Strike just updated their Churchill Crocodile set to include the information that Michel generously provided in this thread. As for the point about the C squadron markings, these are based on an IWM photograph of Crocodiles operating outside s' Hertogenbosch with what appears to be a faded C squadron marking on the turret front. Not 100%, but better to include to give the modeler a choice.
  16. Nice to see such reactivity in correcting the decals set! The Instruction Sheet seems to be the one for the old set still though?

  17. Yes, B11140 shows the Sqn symbol, but with a light colour infill and the Tp number (11?) inside, both of which are absent in the decals...
  18. Michael Nikov

    Michael Nikov Member

    Hard to say what number is in the circle. To my eye, it looks like a 12 or 14, but far from certain.

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