Only 130 MkVICs were ever built, with fractionally wider tranks, a slightly different turret including no cupola, and its 2xBesa MGs, one 15mm one 7.92mm... A lot of these seem to have been sent to and lost in France in 1940, used by units already fielding MkVIAs and Bs - but can anyone give me precise numbers for C-models sent and lost? I guess the one place would be in the war diaries of units using them, but I'm a bit remote from Kew
The production figures that I have are slightly higher, in 'Jane's tanks of WWII' by Leland Ness there is a table of production broken down by manufacturer. Four contracts; Mk VIc : J. Fowler - 34 Ruston & Hornby - 39 Vickers Armstrong - 55 Vulcan - 38 A grand total of 166. Whether they were all completed is hard to know. The numbers do correspond well to the WD census numbers though, T4309 - T4342 = 34 MkVIc T5130 - T5184 = 55 MkVIc & AA MkII T5774 - T5812 = 39 MkVIc & AA MkII T5853 - T5882 = 40 MkVIc So if the Anti-Aircraft tanks are removed your figure of 130 would make sense. A MkVIc of HQ Squadron 10th Hussars abandoned in France 1940 EDIT: 9th Lancers not 10th Hussars see Roddy's post #59 In BT White's 'British Tanks and Fighting Vehicles 1914-1945' he states that "The Light Tank Mark VIc was used in small numbers by the 1st Armoured Division in France in 1940, and later, a few tanks of this type were with the garrison of Malta." As for deployment, all I can find is this, in Fletcher's 'The Great Tank Scandal' Two armoured brigades composed 1st Armoured Division. The 2nd Armoured Brigade consisted of the Bays, 10th Hussars and 9th Lancers; 3rd Armoured Brigade included 2nd, 3rd and 5th RTR. The composition of the Bays was four A9 cruisers, three A10s and twenty-two A13s, with twenty-one Light Mark VIc tanks This may be taken as typical. So to extrapolate those figures of 21 per regiment to the six regiments of 1st Armoured Division would give a figure of 126 with a tiny handful left over for Malta and later, North Africa. Edit: A little more from Liddell-Hart's 'The Tanks, Vol.Two', "Out of 284 tanks in the six armoured units on leaving England, 134 were light tanks" a MkVIc on Malta again from 'The Great Tank Scandal' When the survivors of the British Expeditionary Force struggled home in June 1940 they brought back with them thirteen tanks - six light and seven cruisers. They left behind in France another 691, not counting armoured cars and carriers. All those rescued came from 1st Armoured Division, They joined 340 tanks and armoured cars - not including scout cars, carriers and obsolete training machines - still in the United Kingdom. Thomas Jentz in his 'Tank Combat in North Africa, the opening rounds' states that the light tanks on strength in the Middle East theatre on 1st March 1941 were; 36 MkVI, 55 MkVIa, 276 MkVIb and one solitary MkVIc with a further six in transit. a MkVIc in North Africa
Regenburg only has "about 60" VIc going out with the BEF, and nothing specific on how many were captured or converted. No real precision whatever I'm afraid, though his other figures usually seem pretty solid.
The production figures that I have are slightly higher, in 'Jane's tanks of WWII' by Leland Ness there is a table of production broken down by manufacturer. Four contracts; Mk VIc : J. Fowler - 34 Ruston & Hornby - 39 Vickers Armstrong - 55 Vulcan - 38 A grand total of 166. Whether they were all completed is hard to know. The numbers do correspond well to the WD census numbers though, T4309 - T4342 = 34 MkVIc T5130 - T5184 = 55 MkVIc & AA MkII T5774 - T5812 = 39 MkVIc & AA MkII T5853 - T5882 = 40 MkVIc So if the Anti-Aircraft tanks are removed your figure of 130 would make sense. Thanks for that - I assumed that given the "June 1940" cutoff date for production, x-number of chassis went on to be Light AAs. However - THIS is interesting... T5853 - T5882 = 40 MkVIc If the numbers are issued chronologically - do I detect an attempt to replace some of what was lost in France? In BT White's 'British Tanks and Fighting Vehicles 1914-1945' he states that "The Light Tank Mark VIc was used in small numbers by the 1st Armoured Division in France in 1940, and later, a few tanks of this type were with the garrison of Malta." Yep, I love BT White's book, I have an original copy - 3/6d from Ian Allans, 60p from a car boot sale three years ago! Do you happen to know how many were on Malta??? As for deployment, all I can find is this, in Fletcher's 'The Great Tank Scandal' Quote: Two armoured brigades composed 1st Armoured Division. The 2nd Armoured Brigade consisted of the Bays, 10th Hussars and 9th Lancers; 3rd Armoured Brigade included 2nd, 3rd and 5th RTR. The composition of the Bays was four A9 cruisers, three A10s and twenty-two A13s, with twenty-one Light Mark VIc tanks This may be taken as typical. OK, this is an interesting comment....but HAS to be wrong! 1/ "So to extrapolate those figures of 21 per regiment to the six regiments of 1st Armoured Division would give a figure of 126" 2/ "When the survivors of the British Expeditionary Force struggled home in June 1940 they brought back with them thirteen tanks - six light...." 3/ "Royal Armoured Corps Half-yearly Progress Reports, courtesy of the Bovington Tank Museum" which lists AFV "Wastage 3/9/1939 -23/12/1942" ...the losses in France 1940 are listed (at the bottom appendix) as "Mk VIB 345, Mk VIC 62" 62 + 6 survivors...doesn't make 126, so I'm not sure about Fletcher's comment about typicality Also, and of course... 4/ if 126 went to France and only 6 came back...where does all 22 Armd Bde's come from in 1941? In respect of this puzzle...Regenburg's "about 60" would be right in the ballpark of 62+6= 68....! That's IF the "6 that came back" were indeed VICs....and not Bs! if they weren't - that puts the "62 lost" even closer to Regenburg's "about 60"!
Aha! That's IF the "6 that came back" were indeed VICs....and not Bs! Looks like they weren't EITHER! George Forty in World War Two Tanks says it was six MkVIAs that came back from France!
Moving on.... Philip Vella in his Malta: Blitzed but not Beaten notes the armoured force on the island included 14 tanks: Group #1) 1st Independent Troop, Royal Tank Regiment commander: A/Major R. E. H. Drury 4x Infantry Mk II (A12 Matilda Mk II or III) + 2x Light Mark VIB Arrived on ? (Matildas were nicknamed: Faulknor, Gallant, Greyhound, Griffin) Group #2) A Squadron, 6th RTR commander: A/Major S. D. G. Longworth 8x mix of Cruiser Mk I (A9) + Cruiser Mk III or IV (A13 Mk I or II) Arrived on 12 January 1942 with "8 of 13 tanks" (Fleet Operation MF-3, convoy MW-8A/B, apparently five were on board Themopylae, lost en route) ....so there seems to be some disagreement over the dientity of these tanks on malta! thanl god we've got PICS opf MkVICs there to cointradict this! IOnterestingly, Davide Patore who's been researching all this for some years for a book has identified that before reinforcement arrived in mid-1942, the tank force on the island consisted indeed of 1st Independent Troop, 44th Royal Tank Rgt, composed of: - detachment of 7th Royal Tank Regt (4x Matilda II) - detachment of 3rd (King's Own) Hussars (2x Vickers VIc) ....and after reinforcements arrived, possibly those noted by Vella above - - Troop: one Light Tank Mk VI plus two Light Tank Mk VIC - Troop: three A9 / Cruiser Tank Mk I - Troop: three A13 Mk II / Cruiser Tank Mk IVA - Troop: three Matilda Mk III / A12 / Infantry Tank Mk IIA* - Reserve: one A9 / Cruiser Tank Mk I plus one Matilda Mk III / A12 / Infantry Tank Mk IIA* Total of 14 tanks So the total of tanks is the same, and the number of Vickers' Lights IN THE GARRISON is the same - and I'd go with the identification of them as MkVICs, given the pics we have HOWEVER...there's a postscript to this; searching t'Interweb, I've noticed more than a few comments that MkVIs on the island were also used to clear crashed and damaged aircraft off the island's runways! So the question is - were these the TWO mentioned above.....or were there others???
Going straight to Fletcher & The Great Tank scandal: Starting with the Light Mark Mk.V attempts: Initially only one prototype of the 15mm twin Besa variant, and one of the quad Browning Type. Further development lead to a quad Besa arrangement - Issue began of this type on a VIa chassis at 4 to each HQ Squadron of armored Regts as they became available, but production was slow so they shifted to the same but slightly modified system on a VIb. chassis. Assume this would be the Mk.II you mean? 60 Were built of each type at c.£250 per conversion. (Guessing you're speculating at that 60 figure again?) Further 50 similar turrets were produced for Armoured cars (Humbers), but 'unlikely' that many were fitted as so. Fletcher then goes on to say that Light AAs served in the Western desert, the impolication being that's the only active place they went.
Further development lead to a quad Besa arrangement - Issue began of this type on a VIa chassis at 4 to each HQ Squadron of armored Regts as they became available, but production was slow so they shifted to the same but slightly modified system on a VIb. chassis. Assume this would be the Mk.II you mean? 60 Were built of each type at c.£250 per conversion. (Guessing you're speculating at that 60 figure again?) That's interesting - but contradicts the more precise data Bodston provided from Janes' Mk VIc : J. Fowler - 34 Ruston & Hornby - 39 Vickers Armstrong - 55 Vulcan - 38 A grand total of 166. Whether they were all completed is hard to know. The numbers do correspond well to the WD census numbers though, T4309 - T4342 = 34 MkVIc T5130 - T5184 = 55 MkVIc & AA MkII T5774 - T5812 = 39 MkVIc & AA MkII T5853 - T5882 = 40 MkVIc ...which clearly makes them....and numbers them....as MkVIC chassis :mellow: I think the answer about this could be reached by finding out when the last MkVIBs were really built...what I have so far is from the TANKS! site - Mark IV: 80 - July 1935 to September 1936. Mark IVA: 85 November 1935 to January 1936. Mark IVB: 850 April 1937 to January 1940. Mark IVC: 130 December 1939 to June 1940 ...because if that's correct - at a guess, the majority of Light AA MkIIs built "during" 1940 would have had to be on MkVICs!
This is all of the pictures of the Maltese Mk VICs that I can find.. Most of them are of T5878 Probably only two in total. Edit: There does appear to be two different schemes here. One has the camouflage continued down past the running gear while the other does not. There are differences elsewhere too. My confusion is that they both seem to have the same T5878 census number?
Okay! "About 50" means we can take that awy from 166-168....and we're only looking at ~116-117-118 actual MkVIC tanks Now.... two on Malta... And back to Jentz, p.186 - British reported loss of 1 Mk VIC by 4 RTR and MK VIC by 7 RTR during period 15 - 17 June 1941 ("Battleaxe") - that's another 3... ...and - 62 lost in France; 21 in the UK sent to the ME in early 1941; then ANOTHER ~20 used later in 1941 and left in the UK by the three units of 22 Armd Bde. Assuming the three 1941 losses are from the 21 sent earlier that year...that's - 21+2 (Malta)+62+~20 = ~105! Not many left unaccounted for...
Think Fletcher mentions the Aussies buying some? Can't remember if it was Cs or another type, or find the page now... Helpful eh.
Also....I think a look at the 3rd Kings Own Hussars' war diary would be of benefit; when I see references to them - in North Africa, and on Crete - they're all referring to MkVIBs....yet we have the pictorial evidence from Malta of VICs! A breakdown of what the Hussars had when would be good...
Oh, mean to say - Tom, it looks like T5878 was repainted at least once, there's two completely different patterns there; the pattern with the non-painted sides has a different mottle/stone pattern to the all-over scheme
Back to basics, I wonder if these chaps are worth enquiring with regarding production figures: Vulcan Foundry Locomotive Works Newton-Le-Willows Locomotive fixated types, but do seem to have a very good grasp on the products and paperwork of the Vulcan Foundry. And quoting that Fletcher desert reference in full: Light AA tanks served with the RAC in the Western Desert but no reports have been traced to illustrate their effectiveness - Tank Scandal page 127 Fletcher had his hands on the best archive sources, given his position, but that's as of 1989, so hopefully more has emerged in the last 20 years... somewhere.
Back to basics, I wonder if these chaps are worth enquiring with regarding production figures: Vulcan Foundry Locomotive Works Newton-Le-Willows Locomotive fixated types, but do seem to have a very good grasp on the products and paperwork of the Vulcan Foundry. I would like to clear up whether they made 38 or 40....I can't see there being any major deviation from the Janes' figures tho'! I've had a look round the site, it doesn't seem to be directly related to the foundry, it's an enthusiasts' site, with some contact with old employees. Their info and pics seem to come from a "Vulcan Magazine" that the foundry used to produce. There IS some wartime detail - but not a lot and not specific enough ... Total Vulcan contribution to the war effort in terms of military equipment totals:- 250 Mk V and Mk VI light tanks 600 Matilda Tanks 1700 Machine Gun Mountings 10,000 Torpedo Parts 40,000 smaller Torpedo details
