Was Grossdeutschland division as good as the..........

first three Waffen SS divisions who were probably the best the Waffen SS had to offer?

 

Better than those outfits. Its officer cadre was significantly more educated and the division was better equipped than any of the top SS formations. Hasso von Manteuffel and Graf Strachwitz were two of the best armor commanders in the entire war.

 

Better than those outfits. Its officer cadre was significantly more educated and the division was better equipped than any of the top SS formations. Hasso von Manteuffel and Graf Strachwitz were two of the best armor commanders in the entire war.

I can't get away from you can I???


Vet

 

I put Manteuffel up there with Rommel as far as divisional leadership goes, and Graf Strachwitz most probably was one of the top 5 German armor regiment commanders.

 

Lads, in relation to this what are you referring to when you talk about "as good as". do you mean ideological training? Combat ability? The SS divisions whilst fiercely motivated were also guilty of incurring massive losses and these werent always due to being at the tip of the fighting. The Gross-Deutschland Panzer-Grenadier Division was definitely well-equipped and was used as a fire brigade, being sent from crisis point to crisis point and although they may have had their own personal insignia that does not reflect their combat ability.

People tend to accord some of these formations with almost "Mythical Status" maintaining that they were in some way legendary when in fact they were probably no better than many formations in the Wehrmacht. As an example of this, 5th Panzer Division (not exactly the sexiest of formations) was mentioned by the Russian Command in July 1944 as a formation which should be avoided if at all possible. I dont recall that being said about Gross Deutschland.

They may have been commanded by such luminaries as Hasso Von Manteuffel but many other Heer Formations had good commanders. 11th Panzer had at one stage, Hermann Balck, one of the finest German Commanders of the war, leading it. I notice they are not in your discussion.

I'm not saying they were a bad formation by any means, but this "elite" status they had going on was somewhat misleading. They got the best equipment for sure, but they were trained just like any other Heer formation and their men were no different than the men in any other Heer formation. Feel free to dispute my points mentioned. Not trying to row or rain on your parade but you are going to have to back your assertions up a bit better than that.

 

Feel free to dispute my points mentioned. Not trying to row or rain on your parade but you are going to have to back your assertions up a bit better than that.


I'm not really disputing what you are saying as I agree. 2nd Panzer was on the US Army "beware" list. 6th Panzer under Raus also performed pretty well.

But his question is about GD vs. the 1-3.SS divisions. I think GD had a better combat record, and I gave my opinion.

 

I'm not really disputing what you are saying as I agree. 2nd Panzer was on the US Army "beware" list. 6th Panzer under Raus also performed pretty well.

But his question is about GD vs. the 1-3.SS divisions. I think GD had a better combat record, and I gave my opinion.
His question is indeed about the GD vs. the 1-3 SS divisions. There are two issues I would like to draw attention to:

1. The validity of the question - How is a division "determined" to be better than another. Is it training, equipment, combat record, performance under combat conditions, there are no criteria stated in this discussion making it very hard indeed to refute or indeed agree with

2. You may well think that GD has a better combat record but I cant see from your posts where that is referred to. Are you evaluating your opinion against comparable foes? The SS fought all over Europe against both Soviet and Allied forces, I'm not sure if Grossdeutschland face Western Opposition - Did they inflict similar combat casualties on their respective adversaries?

You have made the point that Gross-Deutschland was better equipped and its Officer Cadre was significantly better educated - in what way? Did they have a requirement to have a minimum level of education? You have ventured forth an opinion that they had a better combat record and I'd like to know why you think so.

 

Gotthard,

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/207229-post77.html

 

I'm not really disputing what you are saying as I agree. [...] and I gave my opinion.

...and obviously that's the problem with you. You just post some rather random stuff without backing up anything of what you say. Please keep your opinions to yourself unless you have something to base it on and tell us what that is

 

Lads, in relation to this what are you referring to when you talk about "as good as". do you mean ideological training? Combat ability? The SS divisions whilst fiercely motivated were also guilty of incurring massive losses and these werent always due to being at the tip of the fighting. The Gross-Deutschland Panzer-Grenadier Division was definitely well-equipped and was used as a fire brigade, being sent from crisis point to crisis point and although they may have had their own personal insignia that does not reflect their combat ability.

People tend to accord some of these formations with almost "Mythical Status" maintaining that they were in some way legendary when in fact they were probably no better than many formations in the Wehrmacht. As an example of this, 5th Panzer Division (not exactly the sexiest of formations) was mentioned by the Russian Command in July 1944 as a formation which should be avoided if at all possible. I dont recall that being said about Gross Deutschland.

They may have been commanded by such luminaries as Hasso Von Manteuffel but many other Heer Formations had good commanders. 11th Panzer had at one stage, Hermann Balck, one of the finest German Commanders of the war, leading it. I notice they are not in your discussion.

I'm not saying they were a bad formation by any means, but this "elite" status they had going on was somewhat misleading. They got the best equipment for sure, but they were trained just like any other Heer formation and their men were no different than the men in any other Heer formation. Feel free to dispute my points mentioned. Not trying to row or rain on your parade but you are going to have to back your assertions up a bit better than that.


You covered it for me. I base the quality of a unit mostly on combat capability and the other factors you mentioned go hand in hand.

 

You covered it for me. I base the quality of a unit mostly on combat capability and the other factors you mentioned go hand in hand.
I may have covered it for you but I dont get your point - are you saying that it was as good as the Waffen SS divisions? If so then were the SS divisions any good? You have stated that you measure the quality of the unit mostly on combat capability - yet you havent given any examples of this - what exactly do you mean? Perhaps giving us some examples might further your point which at the moment seems rather vague.

 

I may have covered it for you but I dont get your point - are you saying that it was as good as the Waffen SS divisions? If so then were the SS divisions any good? You have stated that you measure the quality of the unit mostly on combat capability - yet you havent given any examples of this - what exactly do you mean? Perhaps giving us some examples might further your point which at the moment seems rather vague.


I simply asked if Grossdeutschland was as effective as the 2 panzer corps? I don't see what the problem is for you. If you know WW2 like you claim to then I should not have to write a book for you and I won't. Nothing difficult about it. Everybody know that these units received the best equipment and they all four saw combat on the eastern front. I know the Soviet commanders even mentioned how Totenkopf seemed to be everywhere. By the way, funny that there is no mention anywhere on the net or any books mentioning how great this fifth panzer div was.

 

How good were the SS?

Not very f*cking good; they lost!!! Not only did they lose; but, they lost to a bunch of draftees. How humiliating is that? professional soldiers getting their asses handed to them by conscripts.............outstanding! lets support and admire the losers.

Here's another little tid bit. The SS tarnished an entire generation's reputation. Every SS victory, no matter how impressive, was matched by an equally appalling attrocity.

The SS was a volunteer organization. That means the guys in the units had to want to be there, which means they knew, they f*cking knew, what the SS did and who it served and that appealed to them.

To put these guys on a pedestal and admire their accomplishments is an insult to every Allied soldier that served in the defeat of Germany.


I simply asked if Grossdeutschland was as effective as the 2 panzer corps? I don't see what the problem is for you. If you know WW2 like you claim to then I should not have to write a book for you and I won't. Nothing difficult about it. Everybody know that these units received the best equipment and they all four saw combat on the eastern front. I know the Soviet commanders even mentioned how Totenkopf seemed to be everywhere. By the way, funny that there is no mention anywhere on the net or any books mentioning how great this fifth panzer div was.

Check yourself troop! don't come in here with 13 posts flinging sh*t at moderators. I was in Desert Storm too so you aren't that special

 

Desert Storm, I havent made any claims about my knowledge of WW2 and indeed if you will browse around you will see that I am completely fallible!!!

I suppose where I am coming from is this: Yes those divisions were well-equipped and you are right on the mark there. As to whether they are great, well I'm not so sure. They saw plenty of action but that doesnt mean they were great, simply that they were used as Fire Brigade formations. Their training methods werent any different to that of other Heer formations and they didnt select "the best men" so I dont see why they were great. But thats what debate is all about. If you dont agree then by all means refute me. Thats what we are here for: to learn and enjoy reading about the war.

As regards 5th Panzer Division you might do well to read "Panzer Legions" by Samuel W Mitcham:
Panzer Legions: A Guide to the German Army Tank Divisions of World War II and Their Commanders Stackpole Military History: Amazon.co.uk: Samuel W. Mitcham: Books

Indeed its also referred to in the book "The German Defeat in the East" by the same Author: German Defeat in the East, 1944-45 Stackpole Military History: Amazon.co.uk: Samuel W. Mitcham: Books

He cites Russian Sources in this

By the way funny how I put 5th Panzer division into Google and got this:
Axis History Factbook: 5. Panzer-Division

and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Panzer_Division_(Germany)

 

The SS was a volunteer organization. That means the guys in the units had to want to be there, which means they knew, they f*cking knew, what the SS did and who it served and that appealed to them.

To put these guys on a pedestal and admire their accomplishments is an insult to every Allied soldier that served in the defeat of Germany.
former, initially that was the case but as losses mounted and replacements needed, other soldiers were drafted into the SS. They began to become less and less choosy as the war went on.

 

Desert Storm, I havent made any claims about my knowledge of WW2 and indeed if you will browse around you will see that I am completely fallible!!!

I suppose where I am coming from is this: Yes those divisions were well-equipped and you are right on the mark there. As to whether they are great, well I'm not so sure. They saw plenty of action but that doesnt mean they were great, simply that they were used as Fire Brigade formations. Their training methods werent any different to that of other Heer formations and they didnt select "the best men" so I dont see why they were great. But thats what debate is all about. If you dont agree then by all means refute me. Thats what we are here for: to learn and enjoy reading about the war.

As regards 5th Panzer Division you might do well to read "Panzer Legions" by Samuel W Mitcham:
Panzer Legions: A Guide to the German Army Tank Divisions of World War II and Their Commanders Stackpole Military History: Amazon.co.uk: Samuel W. Mitcham: Books

Indeed its also referred to in the book "The German Defeat in the East" by the same Author: German Defeat in the East, 1944-45 Stackpole Military History: Amazon.co.uk: Samuel W. Mitcham: Books

He cites Russian Sources in this

By the way funny how I put 5th Panzer division into Google and got this:
Axis History Factbook: 5. Panzer-Division

and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Panzer_Division_(Germany)



The SS got the best men. But they suffered heavy losses and after 43 the playing field leveled out because most of Germany's best had been killed in combat and were replaced with lesser trained men. Thank you for those links. I already looked at the wikipedia link and it offered little info. I'll buy one if not both books.

 

former, initially that was the case but as losses mounted and replacements needed, other soldiers were drafted into the SS. They began to become less and less choosy as the war went on.

Exactly!!!............so they weren't that great

 

How good were the SS?

Not very f*cking good; they lost!!! Not only did they lose; but, they lost to a bunch of draftees. How humiliating is that? professional soldiers getting their asses handed to them by conscripts.............outstanding! lets support and admire the losers.

Here's another little tid bit. The SS tarnished an entire generation's reputation. Every SS victory, no matter how impressive, was matched by an equally appalling attrocity.

The SS was a volunteer organization. That means the guys in the units had to want to be there, which means they knew, they f*cking knew, what the SS did and who it served and that appealed to them.

To put these guys on a pedestal and admire their accomplishments is an insult to every Allied soldier that served in the defeat of Germany.




Check yourself troop! don't come in here with 13 posts flinging sh*t at moderators. I was in Desert Storm too so you aren't that special


Rolls eyes. Did I say I was special? Also, quit acting like you are a moderator when you are not.

 

Rolls eyes. Did I say I was special? Also, quit acting like you are a moderator when you are not.


just giving you a heads up.......take it or leave it

 

just giving you a heads up.......take it or leave it

I don't plan on coming here any more so you can shove it.