Wellington X lost out of Foggia Main Italy

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Collers, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. Nicola_G

    Nicola_G Senior Member

    We've a few members who go to TNA regularly & copy files for a small fee.
    Worth contacting them as they are much cheaper than getting TNA to do it.
    I suggest a new thread asking for that file to be copied & let them fight it out to give you the best price.
    ;)

    Psywar.org (Lee) who did some research for me & very reasonably priced & Drew (can't remember his number) also provides that service. Jedburgh22 goes regularly. I go occasionally and am planning a trip next week.
     
  2. Nicola_G

    Nicola_G Senior Member

    DISAPPOINTING RESULTS:unsure:
    Have heard back from RAF Cranwell regarding my application for Uncle Frank's records. They have dodged the issue and sent more forms to fill in and a request for £30. They state that they can only release basic details (which I already know) and that I can complain to a higher authority if not satisfied. Any search they do undertake is currently taking 20 weeks - unbelievable. Talk about getting blood from a stone. Never-the-less I shall fill in the forms and give them a bit of hastle.



    Yes they are incredibly slow, that's general. I waited 3 months, despite me ringing up regularly, saying my last surviving uncle was very ill and could they hurry it along a bit as I wanted him to see the records before he died. Still didn't work. And yes £30 is the standard fee.

    However, if you're family I would have thought you should be able to obtain the full records. It may be because you aren't a direct relative. What I mean by this is that you aren't a spouse, parent or sibling of the deceased service person. I was lucky, my uncle's last brother was still alive and I got him to sign the forms (luckily I did as he died a few months later). I also had myself and 2 cousins added as NoK with the Joint Casualty people to ensure that if I needed anything else I would be able to access it & if the plane was found, they would know who to contact.
     
  3. Collers

    Collers Member

    Hi Nicola
    Thanks for contributing - it calms me down a little when I know I'm not alone in getting frustrated with the slowness of events.

    Yesterday I felt like swooping down oin the MoD and "switching to guns"

    Patience is a virtue - possess it if you can - seldom seen in little boys and never in a man

    Collers
     
  4. Nicola_G

    Nicola_G Senior Member

    Hi Nicola
    Thanks for contributing - it calms me down a little when I know I'm not alone in getting frustrated with the slowness of events.

    Yesterday I felt like swooping down oin the MoD and "switching to guns"

    Patience is a virtue - possess it if you can - seldom seen in little boys and never in a man

    Collers

    Unfortunately with RAF Cranwell it is I'm afraid Collers. I've had to develop a large amount of patience on this whole adventure :).

    BUT it makes every little piece of information found, so much more rewarding :D:D:D. Hang in there and just keep plodding through & be dogged about it. Eventually stuff filters to the interweb and someone somewhere will pick it up and contact you, or you will find something. Just keep doing google searches. That's what I did and its taken nearly 2 years, which is actually quite fast. Thanks to the internet!! Hurrah for the internet! Long live the internet!! :D:D:D
     
  5. Collers

    Collers Member

    I have checked 40 Sqd Operations Records (AIR/27/413) from Nov 1943 to May 1944 and the crew of LP127 who died on the night of 24/25 May 1944 are not listed in any previous sortie during this period. Therefore they must have been transferred into the squadron just prior to 24/25th.

    There is however, one mention of a Sgt F Broad in the crew of LP195 on the night of 16/17 May. On this occasion the crew consisted of six instead of the usual five and Sgt Broad is listed directly under the Captain where normally the navigator would be. Perhaps he was undergoing training and familiarisation, or maybe he was an entirely different Sgt F Broad than the one who captained LP127 on 24/25 May.

    Checking across the records it appears most planes in the squadron flew missions quite frequently but LP127 seems to be an exception, it was only used four times during May on nights of 9/10; 10/11; 11/12 and the last fatal one on 24/25. Furthermore, it was flown on each occasion by an entirely different crew.

    All of this doesn't solve anything for me but, nonetheless, I find it very intriguing and mystifying :confused:
     
  6. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    As mentioned earlier, I examined W/O Desico's service file to see if any information in it could shed some light on this crash for Collers.

    The file contains a fair bit of information as to this loss. Given that no crew survived to provide a narrative there is no cause of crash given. But to give some idea of the conditions where it crashed it is described as "thickly wooded mountain side to the SE of Laviano". The comment is also made that it took three days to get to the location on foot.

    I do not believe the aircraft was 200 kms off course. There is not one mention in the file of any navigational error and to my mind I would suspect that the aircraft was returning to Foggia. Looking at the the crash location it is not that far away from No. 40 Squadron's base. Had there been a case of suspected navigational error there would have been some mention in the documents I copied. There is not.

    The remains of three of the crew were found, the other two suspected of being completely destroyed during the crash. I don't believe anything would be gained by describing the conditions of the three sets of remains. A comment is made by the Graves Concentration Unit officer that the three bodies had been looted and this is confirmed by Italian Civil police at Laviano. Amongst the items looted were identification discs which were located later near the remains. Only Coller's uncle, Sgt Baker, was identified based on his Observer's brevet and Sergeant's stripes.

    Finally, in reply to Coller's last posting about the lack of operations for this crew and this aircraft, Desico's file states he was taken on strength with No. 40 Squadron on 20 April, 1944. Yet, on a copy of a letter in the file from the CO of No. 40 Sqn to the father of Desico states "your son arrived on the squadron 7 May and had been on 9 operational sorties", so clearly he flew with a different crew before 24 May.
     
  7. Collers

    Collers Member

    alieneyes

    I cannot thank you enough for your efforts in obtaining Desico's file. This has increased my knowledge of the tragic events considerably.

    Thank you for your faith in my uncle, it eases my mind that there was no criticism of the crash position with regard to the flight plan. Even if he were involved in a miscalculation I would think none-the-less of him. By all accounts the weather that night was atrocious with heavy cloud, electric storms and icing down to low altitudes. I can’t imagine myself trying to work my way round hills and mountains in the dark at 150 knots with possibly a bomb bay still full of high explosive.

    With regard to the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the bodies. In wartime many people behaved in ways that ordinarily they would not. We ourselves have never been subject to suffering the privations of war and cannot say in all honesty how we would behave under similar circumstances.

    Following the confusion as to the whereabouts of this crew prior to their mission on 24/25 May, I re-checked the May 44 Op Records for 40 Sqd and Desico does not show on any sortie until that fateful night. It is very probable that his 9 missions were with his previous squadron.

    I am somewhat overwhelmed by the support, help and encouragement I have received from this forum and particularly alieneyes who must have spent an age checking all the documentation and extracting the facts on my behalf.

    Many thanks to you all

    Meanwhile the quest continues
     
  8. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    A couple of YouTube clips for the mix Collers:
    • This 7-min. 1939 Kiel Canal daylight raid reconstruction has bags of well-lit internal footage to convey the best idea I've yet seen of Wimp crew dynamics - inc. the navigation table and course-setting
    • This short clip demonstrating the responsiveness & stability of a 'WWII Air Ministry 6A 1078 Wellington Compass'
    Rgds, Steve
     
  9. Collers

    Collers Member

    Wow! Steve
    What a fantastic piece of footage - it makes you feel as if you're up there with them. Some nice shots of the navigator's station as well which gives me some idea of what my uncle must have looked like on a mission.

    Thanks for that
     
  10. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    alieneyes

    I cannot thank you enough for your efforts in obtaining Desico's file. This has increased my knowledge of the tragic events considerably.

    Well done Alieneyes - I have a couple of RCAF files on order through a local resource and I hope my quest ends as well with regards to what the files may contain.

    I was going to tack the Desico file onto my request list but no need to now - a great effort indeed going out of your way to help with this research.

    I have enjoyed following it all so far.....
     
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  11. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    I took a closer look at that "thickly wooded mountain side to the SE of Laviano" last night, whilst trying to figure out the wider topography as it may have affected flight plans, and I'm having difficulty rationalising it as part of a return leg simply for it being on the southern side of an E-W valley broadly facing N toward Foggia. The kind of detail I'd like to aid analysis, from my mountaineering PoV and in no particular order, would be:
    • Locations of front line, allied airfields & axis AA guns
      (sorry to be a dunce at that level of detail)
    • The accident report
      (should have been made if crash not due to enemy action)
    • An operational plan c/w proposed routes and any secondary/fallback targets
      (maybe spelt out and perhaps even illustrated in a unit appendix or in campaign records further up the command chain)
    • A timeline relating the crash to predicted take-off, on-target & return times
    • Relevant weather reports
      (esp. for wind directions at various altitudes so we may infer valley conditions - hopefully inc. snow conditions underfoot to cast light on the '3 day' comment)
    • Exact crash-site location amongst all the side valleys & spurs
      (perhaps Desico's file says more on that [best transcribed for our independent interpretation if alieneyes can be persuaded] and what exactly was Prof. Alberti's version [can't find anything on Air Crash Po])
     
    Collers likes this.
  12. Collers

    Collers Member

    Alieneyes found upwards of 60 documents in Desico's file and of these selected 24 pertinent to my quest. I have now studied these in detail and can confirm his post provides all the relevant information to furthering my quest. There are other details regarding body recovery and identification which are best not published and a report that the plane had either exploded on impact or was consumed by fire.
    With regard to the specific Bullet Points
    1. Frontline Location - see map dated 11th May 1944 (Thumb below)
    2. Accident Report. So far no accident report has come to light. It is doubtful if one exists as all crew members perished and nothing was heard from them at Foggia Airstrip who also reported that no other 40 Sqd crews saw anything that might be pertinent. I have asked PsyWar.Org (Lee) to pull the file AIR 14/4144 Bomber Command losses in May 1944 when next he visits the National Archives. It is possible something may be contained in this. I have also downloaded The 627 pages of AIR 27/416 (40 Sqn ORB appendix Jan 1944 to Sept 1949) and have examined these with a negative result.
    3. Operational Plan - Alieneyes has checked with Prof. David Gunby authur of "Sweeping the Skies" and somewhat of an authority on 40 Sqd and he does not have flight plans for that mission. Also nothing was found in AIR 27/416. I am sure they exist somewhere - but where?
    4. Timeline - We know take-off times for all 10 aircraft were progressive from 21-50 to 22-28 with LP127 airborne at 22-08. Aircraft returned intermittently touching down between 00-00 to 02-00. All reported storms, cloud and icing conditions. The earliest returns never reached the target because icing was too severe. (Extracted from AIR 27/413). LP127 crashed at Laviano at approximately 01-00 according to a local report in Desico's file.
    5. Weather Reports - No actual weather reports have yet been located. However, we do know the weather that night was particularly bad with heavy cloud (10-10 over target), electric storms and icing down to low altitudes. This is confirmed in the post by Tom Canning who was at Cassino "...that the weather was atrocious is not an exaggeration..."
    Additionally there is a most harrowing account of pilot Maurice Lihou pilot from 37 Sqd who was on the same mission. (205 Group sent 65 aircraft out of Foggia to hit Valmontone that night). In his book "Out of the Italian Night" He describes his plane being totally immobilised by lightening while attempting to reach the target and he being stunned and the plane dropping 1,000ft before he managed to re-gain control. All instrumentation was knocked out including his and the navigator's compasses. He managed to get his plane back to Foggia by dead reckoning and the seat of his pants.
    6. Exact Crash Site - This should have been easy as Desico's file contains a report by Flying Officer V.W. Long who conducted a local investigation. He reports that Major Long of the Graves Concentration Unit sent to recover the bodies stated that, "The plane crashed into thickly wooded mountainside to the SE of Laviano (Lat 40.47N - Lon 15.18E) at 0100 hrs on 25th May '44. Reported to Major Lang by Salerno Town Major by 'phone on 28th May." Unfortunately the co-ordinates given work out to be Laviano and not up in the hills. Prof. Alberti's e-mail merely stated that the plane crashed into thickly wooded hillside SE of Laviano. He promised to investigate further but so far I have heard nothing.

    Collers
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Collers-

    must butt in here as the OAB of 11th MAY '44 as is as was planned prior to the staff in finally realising that the Kiwi Division was exhausted and was resting alongside the 4th & 10th Indian Divs near the East coast -owing to their losses at both 2nd and 3d battles of Cassino and was replaced by 1st Canadian Div with 25th Brit Tank bde - with 5th Cdn AD and 21st Brit Tank bde in reserve near Presenzano - the Kiwi's then returned with 6th Sth African AD near Agnani north of Valmontone to take over from us after we had cleaned up the mess of a mountain side falling on us caused by the excessive rains
    Cheers
     
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  14. Collers

    Collers Member

    TOM

    Thanks for that correction. I was searching for a map showing battle lines around the date of 24/25 May and this was the only one I came across. If you can point me in the direction of any other I would appreciate it.

    Collers
     
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Collers
    All I have is the action of units from 11th May - to 4th June which show the direction of various Divisions in that Operation Diadem showing the 1st Cdn of XIII Corps
    moving from Pignatoro-Aquino -Pontecorvo - Arce - Ceprano- Frosinone - and 5th Cdn AD alongside with 6th Sth African AD joining just before Agnani - this is map 15 from the Canadian history of Canadians in Italy '43-'45- we then had to get out of the way for the French to run past to Palestrino and the US 5th to take ROME as by June 2nd we were at Ferentino
    Cheers
     
  16. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Right, thanks for the update Collers. I nearly added a PS to query any report of LP127's approach trajectory toward the crash sight but to now field your welcome comments:
    • Front line: So crash far enough into allied territory to discount any enemy AA damage having directly brought the a/c down - any such more likely to have triggered that indirectly by compromising its controls. Also, the target being closer to the coast than the front is an open invitation for raiding a/c to keep out of harm's way over the sea as much as possible.
    • Report: An RAF form 765 ("Report on Flying Accident or Forced Landing not Attributable to Enemy Action") ought to have been completed - however sparsely - unless, of course, the loss was officially deemed "attributable to enemy action". DoRIS' ability/inability to turn up an RAF Accident Record Card should be diagnostic of that decision.
    • Plan: How about AIR 14/3117 (Bomber Command group operation orders, May '44)? Start at this post to judge Nicola_G's equivalent results from PsyWar.Org. (Sorry not to think of suggesting that before!)
    • Timeline: 2h50' was certainly too long to fly only 45 miles - 15mph being well below a Wimp's stalling speed of ~60mph - and, weather permitting of course, ample to have got them to the target and back. So return leg looking favourite.
    • Weather: Nothing about wind direction in the book? To rephrase your plan comment, I'm sure one must exist somewhere - the Army? Nicola_G applied to the relevant met office - don't know if she had to pay (knowing Bracknell do charge to retrieve archived data)!
    • Location: Yes, distinctly odd those co-ordinates - I'm particularly suspicous that the brackets are exactly where they are just because they are for the village rather than for the site. Other explanations (e.g. mishearing, the langage barrier and ambiguous handwriting) may bear consideration - even though they do seem to be clutching at straws by comparison!
    Illegitimi non carborundum, Steve
     
  17. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Well done Alieneyes - I have a couple of RCAF files on order through a local resource and I hope my quest ends as well with regards to what the files may contain.

    Dave, many thanks for that.

    One thing to keep in mind about service files at the LAC is that the earlier something is the less there seems to be. I was looking up RCAF losses on No. 101 Squadron for 1942 last week and Monday. File after file is missing the casualty portion.

    I've taken to referring to some of these files as "crap shoots" given the lack of information. Still, when the files are not available through UK sources "we takes what we can gets."

    If your researcher is who I think he is he will know to go through the whole file as quite a bit looks to be co-mingled.

    Good luck.
     
  18. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Looking for something else entirely, as you do, I just stumbled upon this tidbit - 6 Inniskillin Fusiliers (Irish Brigade) ORB apparently at Formicola - its main weather-related timeline being:
    • 22 May "Rain in the evening."
    • 23 May "Rain during the afternoon and evening."
    • 24 May "Weather clear and bright"
    • 25 May 07:45 "Brigadier delayed owing to the need for him to investigate traffic held up, believed due to collapse of bridge over FIUME D'AQUINO."
    • 26 May "Weather fine and warm. Little cloud."
    It reads to me as if a warm front went through; unusually swelling the R. Melfa* on the fateful night - by either extended high altitude rainfall or accelerated spring melt.

    * I deduce where the SS6 Via Casilina bridges it 3m W of Aquino (8m W of Cassino)
     
  19. Nicola_G

    Nicola_G Senior Member

    I have checked 40 Sqd Operations Records (AIR/27/413) from Nov 1943 to May 1944 and the crew of LP127 who died on the night of 24/25 May 1944 are not listed in any previous sortie during this period. Therefore they must have been transferred into the squadron just prior to 24/25th.


    Collers, I found there were 2 separate sets of microfiche for the ORBs and in some of them it notes when a person is transferred into the squadron
     
  20. Nicola_G

    Nicola_G Senior Member

    Peter Clare is good for obtaining weather reports. He sent me one for the night my uncle's plane disappeared.
     

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