Wellington X lost out of Foggia Main Italy

Excellent analysis Steve - thanks for that.

Comments

Procedural Error: The body was thrown clear of the crash and the identity tags found nearby. Apparently they had not been removed by the police. (Cover-up?)

Differing Descriptions: I assume Major Lang's description is the accurate version as he was responsible for the burial of the body in Salerno.

Timeline: Yes I agree the events barely hang together. One assumes if it took police three days to recover body 3 it must have been a day and a half in either direction. Equally the first civilians on the scene would have taken the same time and they probably wouldn't have arrived initially with the correct gear for transporting two bodies down the mountain side, maybe necessitating a second trip.

Looting: This was reported by the Laviano Civil Police and Major Lang reported that all pockets had been looted leaving no identification. Therefore I don't think wolves had been involved. Further, I believe the police would have much prefered to blame the situation on wild animals in view of the possible embarrassment.

Map Reference Accuracy: I don't have access to the charts you refer to but I know that a reference can only refer to a square and, the coarser the reference, the larger the square it encompasses. Therefore I assume the reference given by Major Lang refers to a square that includes the town of Laviano.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Map Reference Accuracy: I don't have access to the charts you refer to ...
No, nor do I have access to the charts F/O Long used but The "Coordinates Translator" reckons to use the WW2 grid system upon which they were based. Simply select 'Italian Southern Italy' at step 1 and prefix the 6-figure grid reference with "rO" at step 2 - area prefix ('Romeo Oscar' not 'Romeo Zero') found by my trial & error you needn't replicate.

... but I know that a reference can only refer to a square and, the coarser the reference, the larger the square it encompasses. ...
YES, grid systems are generally equi-linear - producing square reference areas such as you describe.

... Therefore I assume the reference given by Major Lang refers to a square that includes the town of Laviano.
Well, sort of, but this far from the equator his lat-lon 'square' has been squeezed in to measure 1,405½m across the top, 1,406½m across the bottom and 1,843m up each side - basically a tall oblong tapering in slightly toward the N pole. And YES, Laviano sits centrally in its lower 60%.

NB: I chose the report's section III spelling of Lange's surname as less confusable with Long's - it not helping that both mean basically the same thing from different roots.

 

Hi Steve,

I've just been through a very interesting exercise following through your advice with regard to the "Coordinates Translator". The Laviano reference, if that's what it's meant to be is reasonably on track but the other just doesn't make any sense. It seems that finite map references were all a bit hit and miss - not very good if you're trying to pin-point a target.

Collers

 

Yes Collers, as I commented before, the 2 grid refs are risible compared to the rationalisable lat-lon ref.* However, on rereading the report, it seems I misattributed their sources to draw false conclusions. The grid refs appear in section I ("COPY OF GRAVES REGISTRATION REPORT FORM.") and would therefore appear to have been Major Lange's as the one filling it in. The lat-lon ref in section II ("INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM MAJOR LANGE"), however, was very likely to have been F/O Long's reinterpretation of what Lange told him.

I was swayed by the possibility of a Bomber Command Flight Officer's map-reading skills not being a match for those of a trained Observer/Navigator but this source-reversal throws me into a certain amount of confusion. This way around, was ground-based Lange an embarrassingly-poor map-reader and why would air-based Long have pin-pointed the village rather than the point of impact? All I can suppose is that F/O Long was merely carrying out what we would now term a 'desktop study' without taking the trouble to visit the crash site to see for himself and did not, therefore, know precisely where it was. As only Lange seems to have talked to the police ("Maj. Lange has personally supervised the exhumation and carried out enquiries with the local authorities"), it's regrettable that Long didn't apparently see fit to interview them himself - something all good fictional detectives seem to do with key witnesses etc to get round Chinese whispers and make sure of the right questions being asked.

It may also be worth airing here my concern about the accuracy of this copy. Was the copy-typist being 100% faithful to the original or should we read its inconsistencies as smoke evidencing fire? Here I'm referring to the peculiar section-numbering - "1.", "11.", "(iii)" & "IV)". The 1-off shorter spelling of Lange's surname, BTW, seems merely the unfortunate result of their reaching the end of the typewriter's carriage movement before completing the word - coincidentally not even leaving room to bung in a hyphen to rescue the situation and presumably not considered important enough to complete by hand.

It therefore seems we must rely on your air crash sleuths to make up the deficit in contemporary reportage - unless, that is, a more aircraft-centric formal Accident Report turns up. Referring back to my LB222 case, by way of explanation there, the RAF Accident Record Card cited "FILE: G18881" which has yet to come to light even after fruitlessly asking the AHB. Maybe this copy on Desico's Canadian file originated from such a file as equally may the LB222 Accident Report I found in Lloyd's Australian casualty file.

Rgds, Steve

* Re lat-lon 'squares', I was scratching around for an online illustration w/o success but then realised I had a couple in my LB222 album all along. The one below is calibrated at 15' intervals further N over the North Sea where the lines of longitude have converged even nearer on their way up to the N Pole - only the yellow Greenwich Meridian being vertical here.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=842&pictureid=4846
PS: Touching back to navigational accuracy, bearing in mind that this was a fairly advanced daytime navigation exercise with knobs on, note how the "Wind:- S'ly at first, veering to N'ly, backing to WSW 20 mph backing throughout day to SSW 20 mph." was carrying LB222 slightly E of its intended course on that long 3rd leg. Also note that this was on 1st Feb '43 - the first day deemed suitable for flying after a week of bad weather keeping 3(C)OTU grounded.

 

OK, re The "Coordinates Translator", I've been having a bit more trial & error fun (reverse engineering this time) to get nearer the grid refs I think Major Lange should have got:

• Laviano Civil Cemetery: His ref 102.343 and mine (rO)102.439 - maybe dyslexia (34 for 43), somewhere along the line, combined with misreading of ambiguous handwriting (3 got from 8 referring to next grid square down) ?
• Salerno Military Cemetery: His ref 102.433 and mine (rN)779.252 - much harder to rationalise as only the possibility of misreading 7 as 1 and 5 as 3 really springs out at me. He did, however, use a smaller scale map there and express some doubt to cover his back - "(From 1/250000 Europe (Air)Sheet K33/11 map ref appears to be 102.433)"

Steve

 

Have been following your lengthy discussions on 40 Squadron with interest as my uncle George Andrews was with 40 Squadron, although until we receive his records which are on order we do not know what part he played - probably ground crew. I do have a few pictures of him with the Squadron taken in Foggia and Rome in 1945. Whilst I am waiting for his records does anyone have any suggested reading to keep me going?

One question, how likely is it that someone who is with a Squadron on call up in 1941 would remain with that Squadron until 1945?

Many thanks Barb20

 

STEVE
The more I look at the dodgy map reference situation and your informed efforts to make sense of it the more I realise how hit and miss the whole thing was. Admittedly the guys at Laviano might have been a bit careless in their approach but they were doing it from a position of relative safety and should have got it correct.

Dyslexia? Probably - look at the references: 102.343 and 102.433 - same reference with 3 and 4 transposed?

I have a problem with all of this. Why bother to give a map reference at all for Laviano in a report when it was a known town/village easily found on any map? Equally, why bother to include a reference for the Salerno Military Cemetery which again must have been well-known at this point? The most important reference to include would have been an approximation of the crash site. Armed with a local map and a word with the local police who had been to the site would have given a good approximation.

I think Lange was just interested in doing his job of body recovery and re-interrment and Long was only interested in completing a distasteful investigation with which he had been lumbered.

Looking at your Wellington chart it seems following a set course was just an approximation and without visual checks on recognised sitings and subsequent adjustments to the course it could be a very haphazard affair just flying from A to B on an exercise. Given a 10-10 cloud situation it would be almost impossible and would rely on dead reckoning. No wonder none of those poor crews found the target on the night of 24/25 May 1944.

BARB20
Hi Barb20,
Thanks for taking an interest in my uncle's saga.
I have checked 40 Sqdn. flight op. reports for Nov 1943 and May 1944 and found only one Andrews and he was Australian. Your Uncle George was either Ground Crew as you suggest or not with the squadron at that point.

Like me you are waiting for a Service Report which should reveal all - hopefully.

A good book to read if you can get it is a history of 40 Squadron titled "Sweeping The Skies" by David Gunby.

It would be very nice to see some of your photographs of Foggia if you have the time to post them.

Good luck with your research and keep us informed of any developement.

Collers

PS With regard to squadron postings - yes it's quite likely that George may have been posted to more than one during his service. The Bomb Aimer on my Uncle's aircraft, W/O Desico had been all over the Middle East in various posts before ending up with 40 Squadron

 

Thanks for your response Collers. I will get the book from the library. As far as the photos are concerned, I don't know how to post the photos. If you give me your e-mail address I can probably send them as an attachment. Sorry, I'm not very proficient as far as the computer and web are concerned.

Barb

 

I think Lange was just interested in doing his job of body recovery and re-interrment and Long was only interested in completing a distasteful investigation with which he had been lumbered.
Amen to that. Further analysis of Long's report seems redundant.

So refocussing: Perhaps more important than where, for closure, is why - why were they apparently flying ~ESE toward that mountainside at so low an altitude? The weather reportage I found suggests their keeping below the worst of it, probably for having had a rough time of flying through it over the Apennines on their outward leg, and trying to get back to the Foggian plain via the maze of valleys. But the only real valley there is the one running down to the Golfo di Salerno. That's why I keep hoping for the raid plan as a framework on which to hang speculation preferably informed by impact heading evidence from the crash site.

NB (late response to chart access comment): Apart from Google Earth's 3D capabilities, so far here, my best topographical source is this 16th" 1981 chart - ONC F-2 (20.8MB but with contour lines and terrain characteristic tinting). It's listed in the Perry-Castañeda Library Map Collection - UT Library Online.

@ Barb re posting photos: To quote 51highland, "click on "Go advanced" then click on "Manage attachments". should work ok". And here's the official help on that for good measure.

Steve

 

...trying to get back to the Foggian plain via the maze of valleys

Yes Steve that was my initial thought when I first heard of the crash location and asked the question in my first post re. How could a navigator end up 200 miles off course in the opposite direction?

Reading Maurice Lihou's first-hand account of the same operation in his book "Out of the Italian Night" and how his aircraft became virtually unflyable due to electrical interference knocking out all instrumentation I can understand the reasoning behind a decision to fly further south and then through the comparatively safer lower valleys.

I am still waiting for AIR 14 from Lee and hopefully that may reveal some details - but I'm not holding my breath.

PS One other thought on the route taken by 40 Squadron. F/O Mansfield reported on his return of having to drop to 3,000ft because of icing. This would have been extremely dangerous if the route was directly over the Apennines and probably fatal in heavy cloud. Therefore the route must have taken a safer path away from the highest areas. e.g. Southwesterly and then heading north up the Italian Coast.

 

Hello Colin
Received your private message on WW2Talk. Tired to send the photos via email but for some reason they wouldnt send. Lukily my grandaughter arrived this afternoon and i have got her to do the necessary on the forum.

I am attaching four photos - one is definitely of the whole squadron in Foggia in 1945. There are a couple taken in Rome in 1945 and the other one I am not sure about. As they are not in shorts etc. in this one I think it is probably taken in England - who knows!

My uncle features in them all - Uncle George has a cross identifying him in three and his head is ringed in the Foggia group photo. Unfortunately this isn't very clear but I find it a fascinating photo.

I hope you may be able to recognise someone you know!

Regards

Barb

P.S. Should mention that I believe the photos taken in Rome were perhaps a trip after hostilities were over.
Why I think this is that during my research I found many tributes to ground crew and I quote for your interest:

"Memories of a Bomb Aimer"

By the end of the War I was Bombing Leader of 40 Squadron at Foggia. We kept up our practice bombing abnd our CO had a brilliant idea. All the ground crew, armourers, fitters, riggers who had done such a great job keeping us in the air under gruelling conditions, were given a trip up to Venice and back, a sigh seeing tour, about 20 at a time. This was much appreciated. Soon after this we were all kitted out at a demob station, paid up to date and given a railway warrant for home."

 

Hi Barb

What fascinating photographs. I have nothing like this, you are very lucky and thank you for sharing them.

I have attached the only photo I have of Foggia. It shows my uncle Frank on the right and his brother, my uncle Joe, on the left. Taken in May 1944 just days before he died. The other is Frank while undergoing training in the UK.

Your photo showing the whole squadron is fascinating and shows them in front of what I believe is a B-24 Liberator. The Squadron converted to these in March 1945 and therefore the photograph dates to this or later.

The photographs are later than my uncle's time as he was KIA in May 1944.

Thanks

Collers

 

Colin - Glad you enjoyed the photos and thank you for sharing yours of your Uncles.

I wonder if anyone can tell me who the bombing leader of the Squadron was towards the end of the war who wrote about their trip to Venice?

I tried the library today for the book you mentioned but despite all their help I was unable to get a copy. They are trying "out of Borough" for me now but as it is out of print they are doubtful they will find a copy. They even tried Amazon but no luck. Any suggestions as to where I might get one?

 

Any suggestions as to where I might get one?

If I may field that, WorldCat's listing is a good starting point - should you want to nudge your local librarian, just 'Enter your location:' as a hyphenated postcode (e.g. IG10-2QZ) to customise the library section and check out the situation. FTR, their Amazon link confirms what you were told. Or, if you've got £65 burning a hole in your purse, here's one.

Rgds, Steve

 

Hi Barb

Yes it seems a very difficult book to obtain now. I only found one supplier - Abe Books at http://www.abebooks.co.uk/products/isbn/9781858211909?afn_sr=para&para_l=90

They have it priced at £103.80 - a staggering price that makes Steve's £65 seem quite a bargin.

Another easier book to obtain is "Out of the Italian Night" by Maurice G. Lihou available from several sources. The author was a Wellington pilot and spent time at Foggia but mostly in 37 Squadron. He transferred to 40 Squadron early in February 1945 and flew missions with them. it costs about £7 or £8 and perhaps would be more common in local libraries.

Good luck

Collers

 

Hi everybody, hello Collers,

I forgot to say that in the bibliographic pages of my book, "Operation Pointblank", I listed almost all the possible and still existing publications, essays, books and novels concerning the Vickers Wellington - it may be worthy for a quick list of titles to find.

But the most important thing is, I received an e-mail from Laviano. Here my translation:

"Dear Dr. Marco S., concerning your request for information, here in Laviano there are some aged persons who remember the crash of the plane. I am at your disposal and we know the real point of impact, moreover some of them also saw some parts of the wreckage. I contacted the commander of the municipal police in Laviano who gave his disposal for a contact. For further information, I remain at your disposal.
Dr. Enrico Flauto, President of the Association Amici di Laviano."

(I erased both the mobile numbers, already provided to James).

I am going to write to dr. Flauto, thanking him with regards and asking if they're able to speak and write back in English. If not, I may act as a translator between you and Laviano.
Anyway, I hope this will help.

Marco

 

Hello Collers
I will try and get that one at the library.

Barb

 

Hi Marco,

What marvelous and exciting news from Dr. Enrico Flauto and to think there are elderly people in Laviano who still remember the crash and where it happened. Amazing. He also thought it worthwhile contacting the local police commander who obviously thinks he can help by offering his mobile number.

My lack of language skills is embarrassing and I will need your help with further documentation should it be received please.

Thank you so much for your interest and assistance.

Collers

 

Hi Marco,

What marvelous and exciting news from Dr. Enrico Flauto and to think there are elderly people in Laviano who still remember the crash and where it happened. Amazing. He also thought it worthwhile contacting the local police commander who obviously thinks he can help by offering his mobile number.

My lack of language skills is embarrassing and I will need your help with further documentation should it be received please.

Thank you so much for your interest and assistance.

Collers


Hello Collers and everybody,

Well, until now I only acted as a translator!, but with the help of our friend Matteo, a researcher from Salerno, we hope to find more.

Regards,

Marco

 

Hello Collers
Just to give you an up-date - the wonderful library managed eventually to get me a copy of Sweeping the Skies. I am reading this at present. Unfortunately there is very little about ground crew but it is still interesting. One of the pictures that I sent you with the Squadron in front of an aircraft is actually in the book. Although his face wasn't very clear it was gratifying to be able to match my uncle's position from the photo I have to that in the book.

I am now going to try the library for "Out of the Italian Night".

Cheers

Barb