Who guarded British POW camps?

HI,

Wanted to know if anyone could tell me who guarded British POW camps. My G.grandfather guarded prisoners at Lockerbie and I'm trying to work out his unit.

Thanking you in Advance.

Conor

 

Conor

In May 1945, my mob, the 4th Queen Own Hussars were sent into Austria to deal with an SS Cavalry Division that refused to stop fighting.
Fortunately for us, they changed their mind, and we finished up running a POW camp to hold them until matters could be sorted out.

The snap shows yours truly outside the main guard room

Ron

 

My grandfather was in prince of wales west yorkshire regt,he was fortunate enough to have flat feet so didnt do overseas duties, and spent some of his service as a guard at camp 55 shalstone, and loading bombers at raf waddington

 

I'm getting the feeling he could have been with anyone.

Conor

 

Conor

In May 1945, my mob, the 4th Queen Own Hussars were sent into Austria to deal with an SS Cavalry Division that refused to stop fighting.
Fortunately for us, they changed their mind, and we finished up running a POW camp to hold them until matters could be sorted out.

The snap shows yours truly outside the main guard room

Ron
Ron would that unit have been the 8th SS "Florian Geyer"?? Just curious. That Unit had an interesting history (and very brutal it was too) fighting partisans in the Pripet Marshes. It was the unit that Hermann Fegelein made his name.

 

Hi Gotthard !

I too would like to know the name of the SS Div that we "took prisoner".

I wrote about the camp here: BBC - WW2 People's War - The War Ends in Italy, 2nd May 1945
but never knew the name of the Division or indeed any of the German troops that we guarded.
I seem to remember that my good friend Peter Ghiringhelli did some research on the matter and I will go back into my records to see what was established. On looking back at my BBC Archives article I see that on the thread that it sparked off, Peter did try to throw some light on the identity of the SS Div.
In the meantime let us throw the matter open to the rest of the researchers on this site and see what they come up with.

Regards

Ron

 

Gotthard

Further to the above, I've done a quick search in my online records and found this from Peter:
Ron
The only SS Division that surrendered to the British army in that area that I know of is the 24th, these were mountain troops. They surrendered in early May in Istria, a website says at 'Isonzo', but the Isonzo is a river. The Isonzo was on Italian territory in 1945, then handed over to Jugoslavia, but it is now in Slovenia and only the mouth of the Isonzo remains on Italian territory (see here http://www.parks.it/riserva.foce.isonzo/Eindex.html for the location).

An SS Division would have had between 10,000 and 20,000 men within two or three regiments (sometimes called 'standharte', the SS term for regiment) and supporting troops - which could include cavalry. Even the most mechanised divisions included a large number of draught horses, but I do not know if any cavalry units were in the 24th SS Division. However, things were chaotic in May 45 and the 15th Cossak Cavalry Corps (sometimes even now wrongly referred to as the 15th SS Cossack Cavalry Corps) consisting of some 42,000 horsed Cossacks was in the area. Theirs were fine horses and were left behind both in Lombardy and in Austria. Tom Canning, who witnessed things first hand, may be able to tell you more; in fact I met him discussing this very thing.

Regards,

Peter

 

Ron

I just found out that Florian Geyer were not in Austria at the end of the war. They were annihalated as a unit in Budapest in Feb 1945. See my thread that I have started on the subject.

 

Gotthard

just found out that Florian Geyer were not in Austria at the end of the war

I'm interested to see that you have started a new thread about the Florian Geyer Div and wish you joy in your research ......but I would remind all on this site that I am still waiting for someone to tell me who I actually guarded 62 years ago !

Ron

 

Gotthard



I'm interested to see that you have started a new thread about the Florian Geyer Div and wish you joy in your research ......but I would remind all on this site that I am still waiting for someone to tell me who I actually guarded 62 years ago !

Ron
LOL!! Ron, sorry if my preamble detracted from your search, which is why I felt my area would be better in its own area!

 

Ron

Here is some further info on 24. Waffen Gebirgd (Karstjäger) Division der SS, from the excellent 'Men-at-Arms' The Waffen-SS, volume 4, by Gordon Williamson, Osprey:

"Between October 1943 and June 1944, headquartered at Gradisca, it carried out anti-partisan actions in northern Italy around Trieste, Udine and the Istrian peninsula and unit strength increased to just under 1,000 men [battalion strength]. In July 1944, Himmler ordered it upgraded to a 'division' with an establishment of 6,600, under the supervision of the notorious SS-Graf Odilo Globocnik, Higher SS & Police Leader for the Adriatic coastal region. [effectively Himmler's personal representative, he later committed suicide whilst under 4th Hussars arrest].

In August-November Karstjäger continued its anti-partisan operations in the same areas; but by December 1944 its strength had still only reached 3,000 men, and the division was downgraded to brigade status [designated Waffen Gebirgs (Karlsjäger) Brigade der SS commanded by SS-Sturmbannführer Werner Hann Dec '44 - Feb '45; then by SS-Oberführer Adolf Wagner Feb-May '45]. Early in 1945 it clashed with [Italian] partisans supported by British troops in the Julian Alps. ... On 9 May 1945 Karstjäger surrendered to the British 6th Armoured Division - it was one of the very last German units to lay down its arms."

But remember things were never quite as neat as this in the chaos of April-May 1945. Depleted and retreating German units were banding together and the pro-Nazi Russian Cossak cavalry, which was let loose in northern Italy in 1944 burning and pillaging, was also retreating into Austria with German formations.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Peter

Glad to see you back here and, until others on the site think otherwise, your "Waffen Gebirgs (Karlsjäger) Brigade der SS" seems to fit the bill.

While I have the floor, I do remember that we had quite a mixed bag of prisoners in the camp. Ocasionally we used to get surprise visits from our own British Field Security and all the prisoners were told to raise their hands to demonstrate whether or not they had their blood group tatooed under their arm, a sure sign that they were Waffen SS.

Cheers

ron

 

I'm assuming the POW camp in question was Camp 68, Halmuir Farm Camp, Lockerbie ?
Why not send off for his service records ?
How much do you know about him?
Any photos?

Just thought you'd like to see the Ukrainian Chapel built just after the war.
Visitscotland Ukrainian POW Chapel Lockerbie Church/Chapel Welcome

Hi Owen,
the Ukranians who created the Chapel would have been members of the S.S.Galicia Division Captured in Italy. They were allowed to settle in the U.K..

 

Adam

As a callow young Trooper of twenty two years I did not realise that sixty-two years later someone would ask me to name the "Gerries" I was guarding !

I'm going to take the cowards way out and leave you & Peter G. to fight amongst yourselves.

Please let me know when it's safe to come out

 

The problem with identifying German Units at the end was that there was such a mixed bag in Austria: There were the remnants of Army Group G, retreating from Yugoslavia (a particularly bitter and bloody retreat), the remnants of the Forces in Italy and also the forces from the East i.e. Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Unit cohesion amongst the Wehrmacht was pretty ok although many "units" on paper turned out to be a few hundred stragglers in real life.

Ron can you remember any unit insignias on the uniforms?? I know you may have already done this but just thought I'd ask!

 

Ron can you remember any unit insignias on the uniforms?? I know you may have already done this but just thought I'd ask!


Gotthard

I plead the 5th amendmant and, as before, can merely paraphrase by saying:

"As a callow young Trooper of twenty two years I did not realise that sixty-two years later someone would ask me to remember what unit badges they were wearing"