Who used Valentines in 1945?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Owen, Mar 24, 2008.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    From Rhineland by WD & S Whitaker.
    A miscaptioned photo .
    IWM B14657.
    They say it is a "Drowned Churchill tank near Kranenburg" , but it's not.
    So who were still using Valentines in early '45?
    Artillery OP tank, Engineers ?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

  3. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    That is a Valentine XI isn't it?
    Used only as a command tank.
    Am I right , oh great tank-nerds?
     
  4. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i like the valentine.very reliable,robust,well armoured and with the 6pdr quite nasty.did royal marines use this tank in support.lee.
     
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Enter 'Kranenburg' into IWM collections and a variety of images of Archers in floodwater pop up, seems possible the vehicle is serving alongside them.

    XI would be a 75mm armed version.
    The 'OP/command' was specifically named as such and seems to have been converted from any ex-gun tank to serve with Archers.
     
  6. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    I´m totally in the dark here, but very interested; what´s the link between the Valentine and the Churchill?
     
  7. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    Kranenburg, Netherlands. Would that have been on the Island?
     
  8. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    Perhaps not as that was flooded December 1944.
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Kranenburg, Netherlands. Would that have been on the Island?
    The one just north of the Reichwald.
    Captured by 15th Scottish Div in Feb'45.
    Then 43 Wessex moved on through it.
    Warlord
    I´m totally in the dark here, but very interested; what´s the link between the Valentine and the Churchill?

    There isn't one, the caption is wrong.
     
  10. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Aaaahhh, even more interesting...

    Valentines equipped with a heavy gun (at least heavier than the 2pdr peashooter)? Since when?

    Being such a potencially strong combination of firepower and armor, as 4th Wilts wrote, even though a bit outmoded by ´45, even ´44, couldn´t it have been used at least for fire support in places like Italy, where the not-exactly-tank country made the heavy Nazi tanks less likely to appear Blitzkrieg style?
     
  11. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  12. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    The problem with Valentine being a successful gun tank in the later part of the war, is the turret crew. To accomodate the larger gun, 6pdr in the MkVIII, IX and X and the 75mm in the Mk XI. The turret crew had to be reduced to only two. There was no room for a loader. This overloads the Commander who now in addition to all of his normal duties has to maintain the radio net and load and clear the main gun as well as load, clear and fire the co-axial machine gun. To reduce this last problem both the Mk VIII and IX were not fitted with one.
    This was of course the only machine gun fitted to the Valentine, as there was no hull gunner position. This in itself is justifiction enough not to commit the up-gunned tanks in Europe. It would render the tank virtually defenceless against enemy infantry. No good at all in close country and urban fighting.
     
  13. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i thought archer was replaced by achillies,before december of 1944.was archer very sucessful.were they used in divs,or corps regts.lee.
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Both came in very late Lee, oct '44 onwards for Archer. M10 had been in service since '42 with the yanks and early '44 with the British but the 17pdr Achilles version was apparently available in the field only early '45.
    I wouldn't say one replaced the other, if anything the Archer was the 'official' SPATG post-war for quite a few years.
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
    To answer my original question , it's been on my bookshelf all along.
    Tank Alert!
    by Ivor D Astley , RA.
    Who was in 236 Battery, 59th Anti-Tank Regiment, 43rd Wessex Division.
    My "own" pet unit.
    From page 83 of his book.
    February 1945,
    BHQ was now the proud possessor of a tank!
    This was a Valentine, mounting a 75mm gun.
    It was to be the Battery commander's "armoured observation post" and not for offensive work.
    Its appearance , at the head of our convoy , gave us quite an aggressive look, but it was dwarfed when passing its bigger brothers, the Sherman and Churchill.
    We were able to operate a 19 Set from it and on the single-road journey towards Cleve which lasted for two days , we were very glad of the comparative comfort as opposed to operating a set from an open carrier.
    Dumbo was the driver ; he handled this new toy very efficiently.
     
  16. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i understand the m10 g.m.c was in service in 1942,but i thought that the achillies 17pdr version was available for overlord.yours,lee.
     
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I've got my doubts too Lee, the above was from Chamberlain & Ellis but I'd always thought a handful had made it to units earlier than that. It is possible that they're using 'Achilles conversion' in some official manner. (though there's even doubt that 'Achilles' was ever really an official name). I'll check Buckley's book which is likely to be much more reliable.
     
  18. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Can of worms being opened up here. :)
    It seems the intention was to have 1000 M10s converted to 17pdr spec by Normandy but it was found that only the later 'T71' mark of M10 could take the 17pdr. "by May 1944 it was estimated less than 100 would be available for Overlord" (Buckley).

    The conversions were apparently only done in dribs and drabs as manpower, the right mark of M10 and, most difficult, guns, became available. This might explain why I've now found 4 different dates in books and 3 more on the web for their date of introduction. :unsure:
     
  19. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    yes v.p,i believed the m10 g.m.c.carried an american 3in-76.2mm gun.the achillies however,carried a 17pdr-76.2mm gun.i think the two guns having the same calibre,has confused me.yours,lee.
     
  20. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Wouldn´t an extension in the rear of the turret, M51 Super Sherman style, had solved the lack-of-space problem?

    I mean, I know it´s a solution from the future by those days, but interesting to consider... :D
     

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