Zimmerit. (And schurzen digressions)

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by von Poop, Jul 4, 2006.

  1. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    It was Monty himself who encouraged a British version of Zimmerit, in his Memorandum on British Armour No.2 of 21st February 1945.

    Para. 34, titled "Camouflage" spake thus:

    "A satisfactory camouflage is required which will eliminate all shine and reflection from the armour plate.

    Some form of plaster like the German "ZIMMERIT" should be produced and incorporated in the manufacture of all future tanks."
     
  2. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Thanks Minotti, I had no idea. Water paint may it be but rather thicker than the usual textured hallway stuff :)

    Don Juan, it's odd that Monty said that, British and everyone else's vehicles were/are so well coated in layers of diverse muck that applying Z wouldn't make much of a difference. Maybe he meant the benzene stink, which is rather cancerígenous so don't lick it!
     
  3. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    As shown earlier in the thread it seems to work rather well with cammo.


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  4. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    A magazine article on another attempt.

    British "Zimmerit"


    July 1995



    by Jeffrey D. McKaughan



    It is widely known of the Gennan practice of applying a paste-like substance to the lower surfaces of armor vehicles during the mid-stages of WWII. This is in response to the use of magnetic mines by infantry and partisans who would wait in hiding to attach one of the mines to the lower sides of a tank.. Called zimmerit, this paste was applied roughly to the lower surfaces. Different patterns were then applied so that there were no smooth surfaces for a mine to grip.
    However, according to a report, anti-magnetic plastic was tested by the British in the European Theater on vehicles at the 256 Armoured Delivery Squadronon 14 April 1945. The report does not clearly indicate if this was the first time the experiments were conducted by this unit or others like it.
    The material used was described as a "plastic" that is kept loose with an industrial alcohol. It was noted that because of damage to the containers that held the plastic, considerable evaporation had taken place. To make the plastic workable again, varying amounts of alcohol were added by the maintenance staff of the 256th.
    The material was to be sprayed on but it was found locally that application by trowel was also effective, if not more so. It was noted that the fumes from the plastic were difficult to work around even if the vehicle was out in the open.
    The plastic was applied to four vehicles for evaluation purposes. These included a Cromwell, Churchill, Ram Sexton. and the gun shield of a 25-pdr.
    The Cromwell was the first vehicle tried and it took 80 man hours and two days to apply the plastic. Because it was the first, subsequent vehicles took proportionally less time and material.

    Several mixtures were tried, including mixing wood wool with the top coat. The result was a finish that was far too smooth even after stippling with fingers. It was also determined that if too much alcohol was used in with the plastic it resulted in a very glossy surface and had a tendency to crack. By far the best mixture was with chopped straw added to the plastic.
    The 256th tried to duplicate a ridged-pattern to the plastic, similar to a pattern used by the Germans. Using a wooden roller to create the ridges, it proved exceedingly difficult as the consistency ofthe plastic seemed too critical for proper application. The results did not warrant the effort.
    There was no follow on report attached and no indication of a final conclusion by the 256th. however, one can assume that by this late stage of the war that the threat was not deemed very high and not requiring further action.


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  5. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Isn't that an Egyptian Ram? If I'm not mistaken who used to dabble with chopped straw were the Pharaoh's Hebrew slaves. They even made a movie about that.
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    A mate holding forth on Twatbook about how Schurzen were all about shaped charges.
    Restrained myself for... Oooh, at least seven minutes.

    Just tell everyone you meet the skirts were introduced for AT rifle reasons.
    They may look a little nonplussed, but the message might eventually spread more widely...

    I see this thread has suffered from the almost funny Photobucket/Ukraine hack.
    No, I have not posted random 'NO WAR' images on the Internerd.



    Assuming this is the Zimmerit-y 251 I posted.

    379-sdkfz251zimmerity9ucf.jpg

    But wonder if someone has modified....

    Screenshot 2022-05-05 155428.jpg


    Iffy.
     
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Looking for Hafthallodung impacts for elsewhere, and pottered onto an interesting report re field Zimmerit tests.

    OVERLORD'S BLOG: 9/22/19 - 9/29/19

    I agree with the author's (It's Listy ) conclusions, but it is a piece of paper that those interested in Zimmerit should perhaps be aware of.
     
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  8. Listy

    Listy Well-Known Member

    Slightly off topic,
    It'll look just like any other hollow charge warhead, would it not? If you can't find any look for beehive charges (I've got an article on those as well).
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Doubtless. I was just digging about for anything on testing of those distinctly German charges for a question thread someone posted here.

    Still think they played a part in Zimmerit itself.
    Defence against your own weapon, possibly with some later bemusement that your enemy never fielded similar devices. :unsure:
     
  10. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Quoted from Walter Spielberger „Sturmgeschütze Entwicklung und Fertigung der sPak“:

    The already mentioned side skirts were discussed during the Führer Conference on 6 and 7 February 1943. Hitler declared himself in favour of the curtained protective armour against anti-tank rifle fire for Panzer III, IV and assault guns.

    20 February 1943: Firing tests on protective covering (wire and plates).
    Firing tests with 14.5 mm Russian anti-tank rifle. Distance 100 m (90°) showed no cracks or bullet holes in the 30 mm side armour, which was protected either by wire mesh or plates.

    When fired with the 7. 5-cm-explosive shell AZ Feldkanone n. A., 2. charge, there were no cracks or penetrations. There was no damage to the hull side if protected by wire or plates. Wire mesh and plates were penetrated or torn away, but could still be used.

    The decision to use sheets instead of wire mesh (despite the fact that both had proven their worth and the wire mesh was lighter), was based on the fact that the wire mesh required a new suspension system which needed time to develop. It was also difficult to procure the wire mesh.

    The skirts were not tested against hollow charge shells, nor were they intended to protect against these weapons.
     
  11. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    That Stug book is Spielberger's best.
    Just dense with 'nuggets' about that most interesting range of vehicles, and German armour in general.
    Sometimes he's a tiny touch 'thin' (eg. Pz.I&II), but absolutely not in that one.

    The mesh Schurzen detail has been a favourite 'ah, but did you know' for a long while now. Handy for confounding some popular misconceptions.
     
  12. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Interestingly, 9 RTR had documented a similar problem with their PIAT:
    postet by Don Juan here: 75mm T45 HVAP ammunition

    However, I agree with Listy that this was certainly not a directly Zimmerite-induced effect.
    I suspect that it was due to slipped hits or something like that, an effect that was also well known from the Panzerfaust.

    It also speaks volumes that WaPrüf 1, who have conducted countless tests with and against shaped charges, have never considered Zimmerit as a defence option.

    Here is a very readable report from some nerds who have reproduced the material and now call it "Timmerit":
    Battledetective Battle Relic
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
  13. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    On 21.12.1944 a test firing was carried out in Kummersdorf, but only with the skirts made of wire mesh and Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck. "The ratio of the accelerated mass on impact to the mass of the skirts, which are supposed to brake the projectile by their inertia, is so different that the skirt can only have a negligible influence on the effect of the projectile. All the skirts were destroyed with the attachment device on the first shot."
    Source: "Schürzen zur Verstärkung der Panzerung", Waffen Revue Nr. 40, p.6457ff
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Andy posted this on TwatterX.
    https://x.com/BritishArmyWDs/status/1720759738760090025?s=20

    F-Fd27uXMAAl72X.jpg

    I know we've had it before, but cannot find it. What do people think?
    At first you smile at the crudeness, then assume it's just an early Schurzen misrepresentation, but...
    'Wooden pegs'?
    What would they think it was disguised 'as'?
    Other explanations?

    Far-fetched thoughts of Bulge Stugs being naughty...
    F-Gx22eXoAAPQiN.jpg

    Hopefully Andy can proovide a date.
     
  15. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I have seen a report mentioning the Pz IV's turret schurzen as an attempt to make it resemble a Tiger. If memory serves, it was a nugget from Italy.

    Wooden pegs could have been used to tighten up the mountings and reduce rattle, maybe?
     
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