Hi, just introducing myself and putting my question out there.

I found part of Patrick Joseph's record in BT 390/82/79 which is interesting because he must have served as Naval Auxiliary Personnel (NAP) too at some point but unfortunately his pouch is empty.
He should have a MN service record called a CRS 10 - not online - but it will only start from January 1941 so there probably won't be much there but it will name his ships from that date until his death on SURREY. I will put up a link for you when I get a minute.

His Seaman's Pouch is held at Kew in piece BT 372/75/39 they can be hit or miss but sometimes here is a photo id in them.
Looks like naval prize money and medals were issued by the Director of Naval Accounts.
BT 395/1/63177



***Added - his CRS 10 should be held at TNA Kew in piece BT 382/1066 if his surname is spelt McC as per the Seaman's Pouch spelling above. But if they used another version it will be in a different file. Here is McAuley and MacAuley - BT 382/1056 those names are held in a block of up to 60 other names so best to visit Kew or use a researcher to obtain.


Regards
Hugh

 

When originally converted in 1940 Canton received a flight of Fairey Seafox floatplanes. These came from 702 squadron that was formed in December 1940 as a Pool Squadron to provide aircraft flights to AMCs. There were usually 2 aircraft in each flight.

Vought-Sikorski Kingfishers did not begin to arrive with the Fleet Air Arm until April 1942. At that point the remaining AMC catapult flights began to convert to the type and transferred to the control of 703 squadron which was formed for the purpose on 3 June 1942. The Kingfisher flight on Canton was supplied by this squadron in 1943/44.

I can't tell exactly when Canton's flight converted but it was before 1 April 1943. On that date one of her Kingfishers, serial FN670, suffered a landing accident and lost its starboard float. It was classed at Cat X = repairable with local resources.

 

A belated welcome to you. As Lesley has already said, I can see you’re already in very good hands.

 

Wow this is brilliant! Thanks for going to so much trouble. Can I ask about the image you attached? Why is it scribbled all over ! I can't read it. But I see you wrote about. prize money and medals. It is my uncle Patrick, as our surname is often misspelt. I guess I need to travel to London to have a look for the CRS 10. I'm very lucky my grandfathers naval records survived at all! Although the pouch is empty could there be any salvageable information on the pouch itself? And can you pls expand on your thoughts re: NAP just so I'm clearer on that point? Could there be other naval records held somewhere?

 

The image is a Merchant Navy medal entitlement slip and the reason it appears scribbled over is because his medal entitlement [normally issued by the MN] was deferred to the Admiralty to issue. The best way to find out more about that medal entitlement would be to contact the Registry of Shipping and Seamen in Cardiff and quote number 114517 which is the reference number to the right of the image. They will know exactly what happened.

What I can make out is this: Prize money [unreadable] CRS 113 [ref for application of 1939-45 Star]
DNA (Wills) to issue - DNA= Director of Naval Accounts [the RN medal issuing authority].There is also a reference to the date 30.3.1950 which may be when his medals were issued to his next of kin.

The pouch itself is just an envelope which would have contained documentation of his service as a NAP rating. Unfortunately, I have seen one or two that show as being empty. For his service on T124 like your grandfather then I would expect there to be a pouch which would list his service. If there is no pouch or it is empty that is really unfortunate because that is the only place where his service on Admiralty RN service would be listed.

Regards
Hugh

 

I can't thank you enough Hugh for making my recording of my late uncle's Naval history so much easier. The Prize money (unreadable) is "Prize money involved". So there's nothing relevant underneath the handwriting is there?

Did it really take that long for the medals to be sent to his mother? I'm surprised but I guess it all had to be double-checked and there were so many medals given out.

I'll attach a photo I took of his medals which my brother has. The medal that reflected my flash is the 1939-1945 The War Medal, but you likely all knew that.

Cheers, Martin

 

Hi Martin,
It depends when the application was made - some never applied, some applied later in life, some, like me, had to apply for their relatives awards.

He has a medal ribbon for the Africa Star with a silver rose [1942-3, North Africa Clasp] - actual medal is not in your picture. He also shows a ribbon for the Atlantic Star with a silver rose. This would indicate the award of the France & Germany Star but Patrick Joseph McCauley died in 1942 so he wouldn't have qualified for that Clasp.

Regards
Hugh

 

Thanks heaps, Hugh!

What a mystery then? I wonder what happened to the Africa Star? Regarding the Atlantic Star does the following account for ribbon and silver rose or have I misunderstood?

"The Atlantic Star was also awarded to those awarded a gallantry medal, with no minimum qualifying period. There was also no minimum qualifying period if service was terminated due to death or disability while on active duty. Awarded for service between 3 September 1939 and 2 September 1945."
​

The ribbon which has the 2 rosettes, am I correct that this was sewn onto a uniform in lieu of wearing the actual medals?

Also you mention a clasp, can you talk more about this pls, like the significance of a clasp and relationship between rosette & clasp (a clasp and a bar are the same yeah?)?

Is this the clasp and if so, it's also missing along with the African Star clasp & the France & Germany Star??

I just want to get it clear because I'm documenting all that I've learnt here, with what I have at home so future generations can see straight up what it's all about.

 

Hi Martin,
The actual medal may have been lost over time while in family possession.

Maybe I wasn't quite clear with my last post, I am not disputing the award of the Atlantic Star at all he has the medal and the ribbon but he also has a rosette on the Atlantic Star. Nothing wrong with that it would be correct to wear the ribbon like that if he was also the holder of the France & Germany Star. You could not wear both medals so you would wear the first one earned in this case the Atlantic Star and wear a rosette on the ribbon to denote the holding of the France & Germany Star. The problem for me is that he died in 1942 and the France & Germany Star was awarded for D Day and beyond.
​

Yes that is correct .

I have attached how those medals would look according to the ribbons that you have. A clasp is a bar and when only wearing ribbons the bar is denoted with the rosette.

Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh,

Yes, I misunderstood your previous post. It's so difficult to get my head around this learning curve. I see now that it's the France & German Star which you were talking about.

This is where I need to follow your previous advice:

"The best way to find out more about that medal entitlement would be to contact the Registry of Shipping and Seamen in Cardiff and quote number 114517 which is the reference number to the right of the image. They will know exactly what happened."
​

Thanks for the photos you attached.

I've altered my file so future generations will benefit from what I've gratefully learnt here.

I would like to build a timeline of PJ MacCauley's time at sea. I have information from discharge books (I believe that's their name) and would really appreciate help deciphering what little info they contain so I can work out if it's possible to fill in gaps of his movements. I'll start with the earliest book. Is it possible to create a consistent timeline from these pages?

Kindest Regards,

Martin

 

Hi Martin,
Yes of course, but that doesn't look like his Dis.A (Discharge Book) it looks more like an id book/certificate for CORDILLERA entering Argentina. Post what you have and I will have a look.
Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh, once again my error. On the last page of the book I noticed it said "Number of Discharge Book: R140048" & just assumed it was so. I have one for the S.S. Surrey as well and am interested to see if it's possible to account for his whereabouts during a particular time frame while he was with the Cordilerra, from the dates/info contained?

**EDIT am I going off topic with the Cordillerra??

Cheers,

Martin

 

Not at all Martin. CORDILLERA was one of the ships he served aboard so is relevant to your search. We can determine from the document that his Dis.A book was first issued on 20 September 1936 so that was probably when he joined the MN although technically he could have joined earlier if he served in the home trade or coasting service which didn't require a discharge book to be issued unless he was on foreign voyages. If you have anything else relevant to his service post it and I will check it out for you.
Regards
Hugh

 

Thank you Hugh,

Looking at the dates is it correct to assume Patrick was attached to the Cordillerra sailing back and forth continuously from 20 Sep 36 to 30 Dec 1937? It appears he hadn't enlisted and I'm left wondering if his next ship the S.S. Surrey

I'm curious about a few things. The name discharge book & why on the front of the Dis.A book it says Argentine Immigration when the Cordillerra was a British Ship? Is it because the route was between somewhere in the UK (major ports?) and the River Plate? I think that's where the ship sailed mostly. Also I have found another ship called the Cordillerra which appears to be a German owned boat? You can see it here: Cordillera

Cheers, Martin

 

Hi Martin,

Not sure what you mean about him not enlisting [that is a military term for joining the forces] merchant seamen didn't have to enlist in the military as they were a reserved occupation and they had their own organisation.

Although it is quite feasible that he stayed aboard CORDILLERA, you shouldn't really assume that Martin - a seaman could sign on and off a ship on completion of a voyage and join another one. Some frequently 'jumped ship' at a port along the way and waited and joined another. But it is clear that he did at least two round voyages on her. I would suggest if you want to know for sure that you obtain her Crew Agreement for the period between 1936 and 1938 - unfortunately you will have to email the Maritime History Archive in Canada as that is where those files are kept for those years. If you are interested in obtaining them then I can give you contact details - there would be a charge for digital copies to be sent to you but they would probably check if he stayed aboard for successive years and when he left before you paid for any records.

The Dis.A book is another name for his discharge book - I think you may be confused about that book and the immigration id certificate. It looks like you don't have his discharge book as it would display all his voyages and ship names in it. What you have shown in the images above is an immigration id certificate which would be required in some foreign ports. So that certificate is only for Argentina and the ship CORDILLERA. Regarding the other CORDILLERA, dismiss that one it is not the same ship.

Regards
Hugh

 

I guess I'm rolling backwards on this steep learning curve. I hadn't a clue about these things. So, let's see if I've got it. If a war breaks out the Navy has available all merchant ships for troop/materials transport?

FWIW, my other uncle did jump ship in New Zealand and I found out via a hint on Ancestry.So I guess the very term 'jump ship' means you are breaking that sea service contract and I get how this could and did happen.

I would really appreciate that, Hugh.

Thanks heaps for clearing this up. I really really appreciate you staying with me on this Hugh.

I've attached the Argentine Immigration Book for the S.S. Surrey, I see he's signed up for 5 years.

Kind Regards,

Martin

 

Not quite. The Merchant Navy was a civilian service and its organisation, running and relationship with the Government was not as straight forward as you might think. At the outbreak of war virtually all seamen were casually employed in the sense that shipowners did not normally offer continuity of employment between voyages.

The Admiralty had to requisition some ships to act as Armed Merchant Cruisers (AMC) for convoy escort work early in the war as well as other vessels. They were crewed by merchant seamen on T124 agreements with RNR officers and regular RN ratings to make up shortfalls. In 1941 the Ministry of Shipping and the Ministry of Transport were amalgamated into one department and renamed the Ministry of War Transport bringing responsibility for both shipping and land transport to a single department, and easing problems of co-ordination of transport in wartime. The subject is much bigger than I could write in a few lines of text here.

Indeed.

Maritime History Archive
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St. John's, NL
A1B 1T5

If you have a research question, contact us at: mhares@mun.ca

You can write or email them and ask if they would look at the Crew Agreement for ss CORDILLERA official number 144239 ask if they have Patrick Joseph McCauley on 1936 - 1938 agreements. I am sure they would look them up for you and send you relevant digital copies of the documents but there would of course be a cost for this which they would advise. They are generally very helpful.

No that is not how it worked. Merchant seamen did not sign on for a set number of years on a ship. What you are seeing there is the length of time PJ McCauley had served at sea in the MN in 1941 so 5 years indicates he first went to sea in late 1936.

Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh,
Thanks for explaining this for me. It''s fascinating for me at the minute as I do my research.

Thank you for the Maritime email address and I have sent an email off to them. I hope I'm in luck.

I finally understand now about my misinterpretation of the Length of sea service part. It works backwards. I can see how important it is to have experience behind you. So when Patrick signed up for the Cordillerra in 1936 he already had 1.4 yrs sea service. What a landlubber I am ...

This now makes me wonder about a ships manifest I've had for a while which names my uncle and I believed it to be him especially as his height matches up to my other records. What do you think Hugh?

Kind Regards,

Martin

 

No worries at all - happy to help. Just to correct you once again [sorry ] if you look at the first id certificate for CORDILLERA you will see that he has been at sea for about 1.5 years but the date stamp was 1938 so I believe he joined the service in 1936. That ship's manifest for GAELIC STAR, official number, 140302, I am pretty sure is for the correct man. There is an Official Logbook/CA for 1936 held at MHA Canada too. Remember to always quote that official number along with the ship's name when making enquiries about ships as that was unique and names were often reused in later ships.

Regards
Hugh

 

I was concentrating on BT 390 Series [pouches] and forgot to point you to CRS 10 forms for T124 NAP so I suggest you check out this file BT 382/3269. This should cover both your relatives. Usual caveat applies if they filed his form under different spellings of his name. I hope you can get lucky with that.

Also, it is best to view this file by visit to the archives in Kew or ask a researcher to obtain it for you as the forms are held in blocks of multiple surnames rather than a single individual file. This would mean that TNA would treat any request by you to them to copy the file as research and charge you accordingly.

Regards
Hugh