Hi, Simple question regarding Princess Maud on D Day please, i know Princess Maud transported American troops to Omaha Beach on D Day,my question is would Princess Maud be in the beachead area of Omaha beach or would it have anchored a few miles away for the American troops to load into smaller assault craft ,Many thanks,Paul.
The latter - they stayed offshore. There's an account of one of her LCA's here that gives a flavour: http://www.combinedops.com/LCA%20D-DAY%20DIARY.htm
By the way, I wonder if anyone might have a wartime photo of Princess Maud or of one of her LCA. I can't seem to find any on the web except maybe this one (but it might be from Princess Margaret, I'm not sure which one used the code "PM"): Michel
Hi Michel, I can only find one photo of Princess Maud with LCA onboard and this was taken from astern so not much detail. It is in the book “Short Sea: Long War (Cross-Channel Ships' Naval & Military Service in WWII)” by John de S. Winser. You can pick up a copy of the book here http://www.worldshipsociety.org/732.html She was not converted to carry the LCA until early 1944. Some good information and photos of some other LSI with landing craft onboard in the book Regards Danny
Hi Danny, Thank you for this info and the link to the WSS. I didn't know of it and will probably apply for membership, although I fear being sucked into the vast universe of warships, having already lots to do just with landing craft! But then LSI are an unavoidable and rather new subject for me, so hopefully they'll have plenty of material there. Would you happen to know from one of the post D Day Green Lists whether LCA 934 was with Princess Maud or with Princess Margaret? She is not listed in the 5 Jun Green List, so I suppose she was a replacement for one of the many craft lost on D Day and afterwards. I'm trying to find out all the codes marked on (most) LCA or other minor craft shortly before D Day identifying their mother ship. I've found quite a few so far, all from photographs, but I have no document to that effect, and still miss a confirmation for my guesses regarding about half of the D Day LSI as follows, bearing in mind that some LCA did not wear a code at all: LSI(H) SS Biarritz BZ? LSI(H) HMS Brigadier BA? LSI(H) SS Canterbury CY? LSI(H) SS Duke of Argyll DA? LSI(L) SS Empire Anvil AL? LSI(L) SS Empire Gauntlet EG? LSI(L) SS Empire Javelin EJ? LSI(L) SS Empire Lance EL? LSI(L) SS Empire Spearhead E-S? LSI(L) HMS Glengyle GE? LSI(L) HMS Glenroy GY? LSI(H) HMS Invicta IA? LSI(H) SS Isle of Guernsey IG? LSI(H) SS Laird's Isle LI? LSI(H) SS Maid of Orleans MO? LSI(L) MV Pampas PS? LSI(H) SS Princess Margaret MT? LSI(H) SS Princess Maud PM? LSI(S) HMS Prins Albert PA? LSI(S) HMS Prinses Astrid AD? LSI(S) HMS Prinses J. Charlotte JC? LSI(H) HMS St. Helier SH? LSI(H) SS Victoria VA? Any help would be welcome. Michel
Hello Michel, Had a look at a couple of things and below is some information on LCA 934. John de S. Winser other book “The D Day Ships” is worth getting if you do not have it. Not much coverage as far as the smaller landing craft go but plenty of information on the other vessels. The WSS have a very good photo archive from what I have seen in various publications. You might be able to get some wartime photos from them. I will have a look and see what I have on the LSI codes. Cannot recall seeing a complete list but I am sure I have seen one or two listed in documents. Regards Danny LCA 934 Date Squadron/Flotilla Location 11/5/44 Completed - E.F.Elkins Ltd 5/6/44 Portsmouth Command, Operational Pooled Reserve, HMS Northney Hayling Island 26/6/44 Expeditionary Force, Shuttle Service, SS Princess Maud, 519 Assault Flotilla 11/9/44 Expeditionary Force, Shuttle Service, SS Princess Maud, 519 Assault Flotilla 2/10/44 Portsmouth Command, 508 Assault Flotilla, “H” Squadron, HMS Cricket Burseldon 23/10/44 Portsmouth Command, 508 Assault Flotilla, HMS Cricket Burseldon 7/5/46 Rosyth Command, Pooled Reserve Rosneath 1951 Sold to Dutch Navy
Hi Danny, Thanks for this most complete info on LCA 934. So it seems she did survive Infatuate 1. I now have one more confirmed LSI code on my list! I suppose that you got her 5 Jun posting from the 5 Jun GL? Which page was it, because it seems I do not have it? Would you also perhaps know Princess Maud's Pennant, and maybe her serial for D Day, although I suspect the all Western Task Force LSI did not have one? Next I'll have to schedule a trip to Chatham to see the WSS photo collection...
Hi Michel, It was on page 54 of the Green List. When I get a chance I will have a look and see if I have anything on the numbers/codes for Princess Maud Hope you get to Chatham to visit the archive. The dockyard is well worth a visit and the last time I went there was a large selection of landing craft models from the IWM on display in No. 1 Smithery with more in the reserve collection. Regards Danny
Michel and Danny, The merchant LSIs didn't have pennant numbers as such. The Empire class has a single letter on the funnel so: LSI(L) SS Empire Anvil A LSI(L) SS Empire Gauntlet G LSI(L) SS Empire Javelin J LSI(L) SS Empire Lance L LSI(L) SS Empire Spearhead S presumably to help the returning LCAs work out which was their mother ship. Could have been confusion with the Cutlass and the Crossbow, for example. The Broadsword and the Battleaxe were in the same assault convoy, maybe they had an extra letter? Roy
Hello Roy, Thanks for that information. I had only seen a couple of those funnel markings in photos. Yes you are right about them being used to identify the ships to the returning LCA. Also used to identify them to landing craft being used in the Ferry Service on the far shore. I have just had a quick look at a few photos and some of the other LSI have the markings on the bow and stern. The letters are on a dark coloured square. Really need to look at photos of all the LSI for the position of the letters and if all of them used the letters. “LC - Llangibby Castle “DW” - Duke of Wellington “SH” - St Hellier “DA” - Duke of Argyll I have seen a set of instructions about painting the letters on the LSI but cannot locate it at the moment. From memory it also said that they were to paint a vertical line on the LSI hull where the landing craft in the Ferry Service could pick troops up from when coming alongside. Regards Danny
Thanks Roy & Danny, This adds to what I had so far, all from photographs, except I have Empire Arquebus with the 'A' on the funnel, not Empire Anvil: (a blank in the following table does not necessarily mean that no marking existed) Code seen on (n=craft number in LSI) Type Prefix Name Pennant Hull Craft Funnel LSI(H) SS Amsterdam AMn LSI(H) SS Ben My Chree BMn LSI(L) SS Clan Lamont 4.420 CL LSI(H) HMS Duke of Wellington 4.400 DW LSI(L) SS Empire Arquebus F 170 EA-n A LSI(L) SS Empire Battleaxe F 161 AX AX LSI(L) SS Empire Broadsword F 163 BD BD LSI(L) SS Empire Crossbow F 183 EC C LSI(L) SS Empire Cutlass F 162 CS LSI(L) SS Empire Halberd F 160 EH H LSI(L) SS Empire Lance L LSI(L) SS Empire Mace F 171 EM M LSI(L) SS Empire Rapier ER R LSI(L) SS Empire Spearhead F 172 S LSI(L) HMS Glenearn 4.250 GN GN LSI(H) SS Isle of Thanet IT LSI(H) SS Lady of Mann LM LSI(L) SS Llangibby Castle LC LC or none LSI(H) SS Mecklenburg L 4.127 MK LSI(L) SS Monowai F 59 MW LSI(S) HMS Prince Baudoin 4.88 PBn LSI(S) HMS Prince Charles 4.120 PCn LSI(M) HMCS Prince David F 89 PD PD LSI(M) HMCS Prince Henry F 70 PH PH LSI(S) HMS Prince Leopold 4.251 PLn LSI(H) SS Princess Maud PM LSI(M) HMS Queen Emma 4.180 QE LSI(H) HMS Royal Ulsterman F 63 RU LSI(H) HMS Ulster Monarch F 69 UM Those for which I had no code at all, except the Pennant Number of some: LSI(H) SS Biarritz LSI(H) HMS Brigadier LSI(H) SS Canterbury LSI(H) SS Duke of Argyll LSI(L) SS Empire Anvil F 184 Diamond or none LSI(L) SS Empire Gauntlet F 123 LSI(L) SS Empire Javelin Diamond LSI(L) HMS Glengyle 4.196 LSI(L) HMS Glenroy 4.256 LSI(H) HMS Invicta 4.283 LSI(H) SS Isle of Guernsey LSI(H) SS Laird's Isle LSI(H) SS Maid of Orleans LSI(L) MV Pampas 4.422 LSI(H) SS Princess Margaret LSI(S) HMS Prins Albert 4.35 LSI(S) HMS Prinses Astrid 4.226 LSI(S) HMS Prinses J. Charlotte 4.238 LSI(H) HMS St. Helier 4.255 LSI(H) SS Victoria As far as I can judge from the period of the photographs where these codes are present or not, they were applied only shortly before D Day. We may perhaps derive a kind of rule for the Empire Class LSI: they would have their initial letter marked on the funnel, and their craft the same initial with the letter 'E' for 'Empire' before it (e.g. 'C' on the funnel for Empire Crossbow and 'EC' for her craft), whereas the other Empire Class LSI with the same initial would have the first and last letter of their name painted in large white letters on the hull side, roughly at the centre, and the same code on the LCA (e.g. 'CS' for Empire Cutlass). Empire Battelaxe & Empire Broadsword look like an exception to this home-made rule, since both used the second type of coding (with a variant for Battleaxe): they used 'AX' and 'BD' respectively, both on the hull and on their craft. Perhaps there was yet a third Empire LSI starting with 'B' then? LSI do seem to have had some kind of identification number taking the form of either "F XX(X)" or "4.XX(X)" (or perhaps "L 4XX(X)"), although "Pennant Number" is perhaps not a totally correct designation for such ID? Michel
Thanks Danny and Michel, We seem to be getting somewhere. I see that Empire Halberd and Empire Lance (and probably others) have a black triangle on the hull forward. I don't think there was a third 'B' in the Empire Class. Could the pennant numbers have bee acquired when these ships were transferred to the RN after June 1944? I have now remembered that Empire Ships by Mitchell and Sawyer show the pennants, for example: He has Empire Battleaxe became HMS Donovan (RN (F161)) etc. I can do a full list if of interest. Roy
You're right, Empire Arquebus and Empire Crossbow also had the dark triangle. I believe the dark triangle was limited to the LSI for GOLD, just like LST for Gold had their hull number inside a dark triangle. I thought that perhaps the colour of the triangle might have been (dark) Blue, which was the code colour for GOLD, but on one colour photo is does look Black. Moreover, Empire Rapier had a dark, larger square, not triangle, at that same location... Similarly, LSI for JUNO seemed to have had their two-letter code painted in white inside a dark square, which might have been Red, painted on the hull fore and aft. I didn't find any geometric sign on LSI for SWORD, but several LCA (from Glenearn and Empire Battleaxe) had the 3 Br Inf Div emblem painted on the sides of the coxwain and Bren gunner's houses. It seems that the Pennants starting with '4' were given when they were converted to LSI. See, for SS Mecklenburg: "May 1943: Depot Ship for submarine service. June 10th 1943: Left Clyde. June 17th 1943: Arrived in Portsmouth for further LSI conversion work under pennant L 4.127." Source: http://www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk/ss-mecklenburg-ii-past-and-present/ As regards Pennants in "F", ONI 201-I does list a few of the LSI with this type of Pennant which it calls "Visual Call Sign", still with their D Day LSI name, e.g. Empire Battleaxe F-161, Empire Broadsword F-163, Empire Cutlass F-162, but the copy I've seen was issued December 1944 (see http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/ONI/), so you might be correct, although I'm not sure whether Empire Broadsword had already been transferred to the RN when she was sunk on 2 Jul 44. The apparent lack of a Pennant Number for Empire Javelin, lost on 28 Dec 44, might come from her not being transferred to the RN by that date. And yes, a full list would be nice Michel
Michel, Thanks for that. Off to give a talk on this subject in an hour or so. Will do the list when I get back. Roy
As promised - the order is Mitchell's, which is by Yard Number: MOWT Name RN Name Pennant Empire Battleaxe Donavon F161 Empire Cutlass Sansovino F162 Mine damage 21 11 1944 repaired Empire Halberd Silvio F160 Empire Broadsword Mined and sank 2 7 1944 Empire Lance Sir Hugo ? Empire Mace Galtee More F171 Empire Rapier Empire Anvil Rocksand F184 Empire Javelin Sunk by U-Boat 28 12 1944 Empire Spearhead Empire Arquebus Cicero F170 First to be transferred - end June 1944 Empire Gauntlet Sefton F123 Empire Crossbow Sainfoin F183 Roy
Thanks Roy! Regarding the code used for D Day by the Empire Class LSI, it looks like the three in Force S had the two-letters code on the hull (just like the fourth LSI in Force S, i.e. Glenearn), whereas the others had the single letter on the funnel. I'm not sure what Empire Anvil (Force O) wore though, nor whether Empire Javelin wore anything beside perhaps the Diamond sign. Michel
Late to this party, but as I was Googling Princess Maud I came across this thread. Here are a couple of shots of Princess Maud's LCA in Weymouth. I'm not certain of the exact date - one book claims end of May and another says 4/5 June. Based on the weather and the fact stores, not men, are being loaded, I'd probably go for the former.
I would have thought early June. I was near Weymouth for the few days leading up to the landings and would think 2nd / 3rd June would be likely. What I like about these pictures is that many of the troops are coloured, my memory is that all the ones that passed the house in Chickerell were African / Americans. There are a series of colour pictures of troops embarking at Weymouth, but these are all white!
