17th Field Company Royal Engineers

That is brilliant news!

 

Ahead of the promised scanned photos (Sunday).


In one of my earlier posts I mentioned that members of 17 FC RE were the first troops (who landed from the sea) to reach the Paras at Pegasus Bridge. This was something I had read in one of those chronologically arranged eye-witness books. I have 3: Forgotten Voices of D-Day, Voices from D-Day and D-Day 1944: Voices from Normandy.


I have not been able to find the eye-witness account (that of a Para) by “spot reading”. No matter as I see the event is discussed on another thread on this site, see “Royal Engineers from Sword to Pegasus Bridge”: Two engineer companies formed advanced parties that were to land on SWORD before their main bodies and head straight to the Canal Bridge..... Travelling in a White Scout Car 17 Field Company’s advanced party consisted of two, Lieutenants HC Clark and BJ Dixon”


Elsewhere in that thread further details are provided (they) made a reconnaissance along the West Bank towards the (planned site of) the Bailey bridge ...... Clark was hit by a bullet and Dixon by shrapnel both were treated in the airborne MDS.


17 FC RE War Diary states that No 3 Pl were first ashore, landing between H+20 mins (presumably the advance party identified above) and H+360 mins (presumably the main body) opposite LION-SUR-MER ..... They adv(anced) to BENOUVILLE, closely followed by HQ and No 1 Pl”. Over the years I have pieced together a detailed landing plan for SWORD and I will reconcile these statements to it and “publish” that plan in a later post. However, for now according to 3 Div’s Operation Order No 1 dated 14th May 1944 the Assault Brigade (8) landed between 07:30 hrs and 09:30 hrs. The Intermediate Brigade (185) landed 10:00 hrs and 11:40hrs. The Reserve Brigade (9) landed between 12:00 hrs and 13:30 hrs.


The presence of one Pl 17 Fd Coy plus det 106 Br Coy RASC plus det 71 A Fd Coy with 8 Brigade (The Assault Brigade) is confirmed by 3 Div’s Operation Order No 1 dated 14th May 1944. However, the main body of 3 Pl is not mentioned as being present with 8 Brigade in this document. The time given in 17 FC RE War Diary (H+360 mins) places the main body of 3 Pl 17 FC RE with 9 Brigade and landing from the 12 LCT in Group 19 (“3 Div Priority vehicles”).


So the proper order in which 17 FC RE landed looks to be:-

1. 07:50 advance party of 3 Pl - probably in Group 3 or 5
2. About 11:30 2 Pl probably in Group 13 or 14; and
3. About 13:30 main body 3 Pl, 1 Pl and Coy HQ probably in Group 19.

In the thread mentioned above “Sapper” expressed some surprise that Royal Engineers beat Lovat’s Commandos to Pegasus but as they landed at 07:50 hrs and had transport whereas the commandos landed in 3 waives (at 08:00, 08:45 and 09:15 hours) and were on foot it seems very credible to me particularly as it is supported by several eye-witness accounts. I will find mine and attribute the source.


In “Monty’s Ironsides” Sergeant Frank Faulkner confirms that two other officers (were) wounded and evacuatedon D-day along with the OC Major D Williston. He also mentions that 2i/c Captain Watson was killed. 17 FC RE War Diary confirms these casualties adding that Captain C W Watson RE was killed at the HQ of Beach Gp during (the strafing of the beach by German plans).


I have always wanted to build a complete picture of g thy e men and movements of 17 FC RE on D-day and it seems I (with your help) am edging closer.


Best Peter

 

Lots to talk about on Saturday!

 

Mark I’ll call you if I may about 10:30? A few typos in my last para - should read:-


I have always wanted to build a complete picture of the men and movements of 17 FC RE on D-day and it seems I (with your help) am edging closer.

 

10.30

spot on!

 

Hello Peter,

I’m sticking my nose in here if you don’t mind. I’m particularly interested in learning more about the activities
of your Dad’s platoon on 06June. I may also be of assistance in tidying up some of the info your putting together.

First of all, a statement from me, regarding the dodgy info to be found in War Diaries. You stated back in post #50…

“Remarkably 17 FC RE’s War Diary makes no reference to the “spiking” of the Russian-made guns or L/Sgt Paddy Johnson’s death.”

One of the most remarkable entries from a war diary that sticks in my mind, comes from the Scottish Canadians who were involved in the capture of a different battery of “Russian” guns that same day. The author of that particular war diary, probably the IO, was excited to mention that he had captured a German typewriter but at the same time did not mention capturing a battery of 12.2cm howitzers!!!
As for the efforts of other ranks, and/or the casualties sustained by other ranks, they often don’t get a mention.

And a few questions about some of the info you’ve found thus far…

Just confirming you Dad was Lieutenant Edmund Crush 247164 ?

Where have you determined that the first men of 17 Fd Coy were ashore at H+20? Both the first tide landing table and 17 Fd Coy’s War Diary state that the first men of the Company were ashore at H+120 ie. two hours after H-Hour - at 0925 hrs.

Why do you think your Dad landed from an “LSI”? Assuming that was meant to be an “LCI(L)”, why do you believe it was LCI(L) 35? From what I’ve gleaned thus far 2 Pl, 17 Fd Coy probably arrived on craft other than LCI(L) 35.


Regards
Arty

 

The Divisional Gallantry Card given to Sgt Faulkner

 

Hi Arty,

Not a problem it’s lovely to share these thoughts with other interest parties. Just had a cracking call with Mark!

Down seeing family On the south coast - will fully respond to all of your questions a.s.a.p. after I return home.

My findings based on a number of different sources - e.g. 17 FC RE War Diary And 3rd Div’s Operational Order. Crossed checked to a detailed landing plan that I put together.

Best Peter

PS will give priority to the photos I promised Mark if that’s OK

 

Hello again Peter,

Get back to me whenever you're free.

Meanwhile if you have not done so download the following (a monumental piece of work that came to us courtesy of Michel Sabarly. A must have document for anybody seriously interested in the events of 06June):

Updated Resource - Landing Table - 3 British Infantry Division Group (First Tide)

And, if you have a couple of spare days to kill then have a read of the following thread (one of a number of staggering efforts by he who is known as Trux…):

Sword Beach.

Regards
Arty

 

Hello Peter

It was great to chat to you this morning.

I have had the chance to look at the war diary. Your father was awarded one of the Divisional Gallantry cards. 5 November 1944 .

 

Dear Arty,


I am sure Mark won’t mind me responding to you first as the photo-shop I use to scan the old photos I use doesn’t open till 10.


Yes my Dad was 247164 Lieutenant Edmund “Ted” Crush (d o b 25/4/1917).


Below is a selection of the research that led me to conclude he probably landed from LSI(L) 35 at 11:30 on 6/6/1944.


As I said in one of my early posts I am pretty certain of my conclusion here (90%) but not 100%. Thanks for the links - I shall read with interest.

1. My recollections of conversations with Dad (My level of certainty in my own recollection appears in brackets after each element): He went over on a landing “craft” numbered “Thirty” (100%) “Five” (80%) or “Three” (20%); He waded ashore (100%); just as he landed the Germans opened fire with machine guns so he hit the deck (100% - so he must have been on foot not in a vehicle). When face-down on the beach he noticed a lump of amber right in front of his face (which he promptly put in his pocket and after the war had it polished-up and put on a gold chain. He gave it to my mother (who is still alive at 97 and still has the amber necklace));
2. Documentary Evidence: 3 Div Operation Order No 1 dated 14 May 1944 states that 2 platoon 17 FC RE was attached to 185 Brigade HQ (This accords 100% with Dad’s own recollections and numerous independent sources);
3. Documentary Evidence: Appendix E of 3 Div Operation Order No 1 dated 14 May 1944 also states that 185 Brigade was due to land between H + 150 (10:00) and H + 250 (11:40) so Dad probably landed in (or close to) that approximate time “window” given he was in command of 2 Pl and that was attached to 185 Brigade HQ for the advance on CAEN.
4. Eye-witness testimony: Dad always said he landed at about 11:30 (i.e. H + 240).
5. Documentary Evidence: The same appendix lists the following “craft” (carrying 185 Brigade and supporting units) in landing order: Group 11 (9 LCI(L)) @ +150 carrying 185 Brigade; Group 12 (11 LCT) @ +185 carrying the Staffordshire Yeomanry; Group 4B (6 LCT) @ +195 carrying 7 Field Regiment RA; Group 13 (6 LCI(L)) @ +215 carrying Beach Group; Group 14 (6 LCI(L)) @ +230 carrying Beach Group; and Group 15 (16 LCT) plus (2 LCT) @ +250 carrying 185’s vehicles and stores respectively.
6. Documentary Evidence: The 2KSLI War Diary states that they were loaded in 3 of the LSI(L)s (Battalion plus a small HQ) so Group 11 looks to be at capacity (max) with the 3 rifle battalions - 2KLSI, 2Warwick and 1Norfolk - in 9 LSI(L). All these units were ashore at the RDV in / around HERMANVILLE by 11:00 (numerous sources) i.e. before Dad said he landed at 11:30. So time and capacity issues rule out Group 11.
7. Group 12 (LCTs carrying Tanks of the Staffordshire Yeomanry) and Group 4B (LCTs carrying RA and numbered out of this sequence because of their earlier run in and shoot role) can be dismissed as likely candidates for carrying 2 Platoon.
8. Therefore, Groups 13 (scheduled to beach just after 11) and 14 (scheduled to beach at circa 11:20) look to be the probables for carrying 2 platoon - right time and troops on foot.
9. Numerous sources: The disposition of the 3 rifle battalions and 185 Brigade HQ once ashore: 2KLSI and Brigade HQ in HERMANVILLE with 2Warwick on the right and 1Norfolks on the left near COLLEVILLE. This disposition (which reflects the planned formation of the advance on CAEN) suggests where the landings took place e.g. the KLSI landed at LE BRECHE* at 10:10 and marched the mile in land to HERMANVILLE. Note: * there are several places with this title.
10. Eye-witness testimony: Both Sapper Churchill and Sapper Patterson (personal diaries) locate the landing of 2 Platoon between COLLEVILLE PLAGE (Queen Red) and LA BRECHE* (Queen White). As noted earlier there are several places with this title. Both eyewitnesses and the log of LSI(L) 35 mention the machine gun fire at the time of landing.
11. Deduction: Bearing in mind that 185 Brigade was due to RDV at HERMANVILLE logic would suggest a landing towards the right-end of COD (looking onshore from the sea) i.e. near boundary with Queen White would be the ideal target landing location for Brigade HQ and attached units because HERMANVILLE lies behind LA BRECHE* and to the right of COD (looking on shore from the sea). * as noted earlier there are several places with this title
12. Eyewitness Testimony: Dad always talked about forming-up in HERMANVILLE before moving in land. I’ve also seen pictures of RE’s from 17 FC in HERMANVILLE. So that places 2 Platoon 17 FC RE there (all other units of 17 FC RE were either making their way to (or destined for) the left flank of SWORD (building bailey bridges over by Pegasus Bridge - see earlier posts).
13. Whilst my Dad had access to a carrier (which I accept would have been loaded on an LCT) Dad would have been with his men not the carrier (100% certain of that). Indeed Sapper Patterson (Dad’s driver, in his personal diary) states that he only “caught-up with 2 Platoon” once he was ashore suggesting the platoon had preceded the carrier ashore. Furthermore, Patterson stated that his passengers (when on the LCT) were Beach Group personnel with a barrage-ballon (most likely RAF personnel) who “hopped it” when, upon landing, he got the carrier stuck on the beach.
14. Summary: Groups 13 or 14 (with 6 LCI(L)s each) have a total of 12 LSI(L)s carrying 1 battalion of infantry plus supporting units (a Beach Group). Compare that load with the 9 LSI(L) in Group 11 carrying 3 infantry battalions. Therefore, groups 13 and 14 look to be “under capacity” with just a Beach Group embarked so they were probably loaded with other units as well.
15. Deduction: So a relatively simple process of elimination and deductive reasoning has 185 Brigade HQ and attached units loaded in Groups 13 and/or 14.
16. Deduction: It follows that Dad’s carrier was probably loaded on an LCT in Group 15 (I.e. arriving after 2 Platoon had arrived on an LSI(L)) because that’s the only sequence of LCI(L) and LCT that “fits the facts” NB The US LCI(L) were swapped from US beaches reasonably late-on to “ease over-crowding on Sword”
17. Eye-witness testimony: As Galik.com shows LCI(L) 33 and 35 landed at the right-hand end of Queen Red (I.e. close to Queen White) and the British troops disembarking are heading right (I.e. in the direction of HERMANVILLE). Those photos are taken at 11:22 and 11:30 I.e. circa the time Dad always said he landed. So time and location point to Dad (and 2 platoon) being on board.
18. Documentary Evidence: LCI(L) 33 and 35 were loaded in Newhaven.
19. Eyewitness Testimony: Dad always said he embarked at Newhaven.
20. Therefore, with the correlation at both embarkation and disembarkation and it’s number, it follows Dad (and 2 platoon) was probably on LCI(L) 35 but possibly on LCI(L) 33.

 

Hi Mark really enjoyed our chat yesterday. Taking my youngest daughter out this morning but will get all the old photos scanned-in and posted today.

Hope you don’t mind by I responded To Arty ahead of scanning the photos largely because the shop doesn’t open till 10 this morning.

Best Peter

 

Arty

The War Diary 17 FC RE states that 3 platoon

Arty,

On the other issue you raised. 17 FC RE war diary states that 3 Platoon landed between H+20 (7:50) and H+360 (13:30). I take that to mean the advance party (named in one of my earlier posts) landed at 7:50 and the rest of 3 platoon, 1 platoon and company HQ landed at 13:30.

therefore the order I gave in one of my earlier posts - advanced party 3rd platoon, 2 platoon, rest of the company looks right to me.

“My sequence” accords 100% with 3 Div’s Operation Order No 1.

Best Peter

 

Mark that is interesting from a number of angles: Dad (MC) and Sapper Cushing (MM) - both in the photo with FM BLM that I’ll post later - were decorated in 15 November 1944.

I see on 5 November the CRE presented Div Comd’s Cards to qualifying members of the company but no names are listed. How how you established Dad was a recipient?

All very very interesting this.

Keep the posts coming please. My next post(s) will be all those old phots.

Best Peter

 

Arty/Mark just watching my youngest daughter do Taekwondo (she’s up for Black belt in September).


I skim read that landing table (impressive work!). However as it stats it was what was planned so let’s call that The Revised Plan.


My research / deduction which is based on documents and eyewitness testimony about what actually happen is nevertheless influenced by what appears to be an earlier (and more high level) plan [Appendix E of 3 Div’s operation order No 1 dated May 1944]. Let’s call that The Earlier Plan.


So I think I need to substitute The Revised Plan for The Earlier Plan and re-run my logic. I guess we all known that short of seeing a picture of a known member of 2 Platoon on a “craft” (with a visible number) we never going to get to 100%. This jigsaw will always have missing pieces but it’ll be a lot of fun trying to put them together.

Best Peter

 

Hello again Peter,

Yes indeed some more fun to come!

You might want to review the times you’ve found. I’m attaching a copy of the relevant page of 17 Fd Co’s War Diary. This covers the period 06June -16 June. I’m sure you’ve already seen it – you may have just misread the time. I’m also attaching a close up of the first line of the entry for 06June, and a verbatim transcription of the entire entry for 06Jun44. The first time stated is “H+120”, not H+20.





The transcription:
“The Company less No. 2 Pl disembarked on beaches between H+120 & H+360
and proceeded to Benouville. No. 2 Pl under Command of 185 Br Inf Bde
assaulted with infantry and fought to, and consolidated around Chateau
de Beauville. No. 3 Pl constructed FBE Rafts on canal. No. 1 Pl prepared
Bailey Br bank seats. O.C. Major DJ Willison wounded in head by an 88 mm
shell fragment. Lt Dixon was hit in the arm by a bullet, and Lt. Clarke
wounded by shellfire.”

Once you’ve had another look at the first link I posted ie. the Landing Table - 3 British Infantry Division Group (First Tide), you’ll see that the first planned landing time for elements of 17 Fd Coy correlates with the actual time reported in the war diary – that is H+120.

Yes, 3 Div Landing Table was dated 18Mar44. There were indeed numerous amendments before the actual event - however the landing table remained substantially unchanged eg. the first elements of 17 Fd Coy landing at H+120.

Meanwhile I've have already extracted ALL of the relevant information from the Landing Table, regarding the planned landing times of all the elements of 17 Fd Coy for 06June. I can send it to you via a PM if you’d like.

On the subject of H-Hour, for the assault in the Sword area on 06Jun44 the time was 0725 hrs not 0730hrs. A small point, but all times (eg H+120) were determined from H-Hour. Hence H+120 was 0925hrs.

With regards to the LCI(L)’s of Group 14 (eg. LCI(L) 35) I’ve only had a quick look at your conclusions. I’ll get back to you on that in more detail. Though just a quick note, Group 14 had been ‘expanded’ to 8 LCI(L)’s by 21May44. On 06June four were USN craft - Pennant No’s 13, 35, 193 & 238. The other four LCI(L)’s were RN craft – Pennant No’s 111, 116, 174, 175. For D-Day these eight LCI(L)’s were allocated the Landing Table Index Numbers (aka Serial) 417 to 424 – which you wont actually see on the 3 Div Landing Table or the 3 Div Op Order. However, all eight craft appear on Naval Orders eg. ONEAST/S7B. The fact that all craft arrived on 06June is confirmed in after action reports. Though, at this point I'm not convinced that anybody from 2 Pl was onboard those particular craft.

Regards
Arty

 

Loving this Arty. Invited Michael to join us. Photos on later

 

Hello Again Peter,

I noticed you had wandered over to the Sword thread to invite "Michael". Make you sure spell it correctly as Michel - otherwise he gets violent

Meanwhile I'm posting my extracted info from the Landing Table as a screengrab of a word doc (the forum will just chew up a table and I'm too lazy to create a spreadsheet!). You'll see that the vast majority of Offrs and men of 17 Fd Coy were allocated craft for 06June. The few others were almost certainly driving vehicles that arrived later. The comments are mine ie. to spark further debate...

Regards
Arty

 

I have spent some time looking at the IWM film referred to in a previous post and have noticed that the half-track has the name “Betty” painted on the front near side mud guard.

 

I am a new boy and an idiot - he'll forgive me - fingers crossed