Help searching Private William Ellis

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by SteveLunt, Oct 31, 2020.

  1. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    Hi all

    Struggling to find a relative William Ellis

    What we do know is from his Death Certificate

    William Ellis aged 36 died in Winson Green Prison in Birmingham by Suicide in 1944

    However his death cert states he was a Private in the Pioneer Corp Solder Number 3857420

    But cannot find a record of him, or why he was in Prison or his service records

    Any help would be greatly appreciated

    Steve
     
  2. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    Others will be along here to advise on obtaining his service records (they are not online for ww2), but his army number was issued post 1919 by the Loyal Regiment from the sequence allocated to them of 3846001-3902000.
    Army Numbers - British Army Numbers of WW2

    Some records of Winson Green Prison are at Birmingham Archives
    HM Prison, Winson Green | The National Archives

    Also, although this may not be relevent, concientious objectors were imprisoned in both World Wars.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
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  3. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    Thank you, we are trying to see if we can find why he was imprisoned and perhaps understand the suicide , although we will never actually know

    Only got his death cert this morning, his burial plot is a strange one and we cant work out if he was married to someone much older or wether this was the son of an ancestor

    Short story is Great Grandmother was married and had several children, her husband is buried in a grave with one of her sons who died young (drowned) and she went on to marry a William Ellis, but this William is 30 years her junior, and he is buried in with her former husband and child

    Sadly National Archives hold no records on Winson Green, only a link to the Birmingham Archives which are not online
     
  4. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Each suicide was in 1944 a crime and there should have been a Coroners Inquest, those records are sealed for 100yrs, unless a special case is made and should be retained by the local archives. I cannot recall when Birmingham escaped from the local government embrace of Warwickshire and Wiki does not help. I expect Birmingham was independent by WW2, so you could ask Birmingham City Council Archives (or whatever they call it if they have the Coroners records).

    Was he a Birmingham resident in 1944, as shown on the Death Certificate?

    In modern times, not WW2, military personnel could be arrested and remanded in custody, either for trial (unusual) or awaiting collection by the military authorities (there were Army barracks in Birmingham then I understand). Or he was sentenced to imprisonment for a civil criminal offence and then committed suicide. HMP Winson Green / Birmingham has been the main prison for a wider area than just Birmingham, so he could have been sentenced at magistrates court across several counties.

    I doubt the wartime newspapers would have reported such an incident, unless his court case was covered.
     
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  5. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    Thank you

    He was a Bolton Resident on the Death Cert, strangely I only just noticed that his Death Cert is noted as being registered on 23rd November, which is the date he was buried

    I thought I would have least been able to find a record from his Service Number (I dont mean service records, but just a basic info sheet like I have had for other Army people like my Uncle)

    I will try and contact the Birmingham Archives to see if they could shed any light
     
  6. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    Also just noted there was a Coronors Inquest in Birmingham on 23rd November 1944 3 days after his death

    Apologies for the other post, his burial was 28th November, the 8 looked like a 3
     
  7. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

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  8. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    Thank you , I have access to FMP Newspaper archives and there is nothing I can find there or on the British Newspaper Archive sadly
     
  9. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    I think you will eventually be able to access the inquest file as this link says that at Birmingham Archives they hold them from 1875 & they are open after 75 years for those by the Birmingham Coroner, as opposed to Warwickshire Coroner. The normal procedure is to look at the file at the record office, but not sure what alternative arrangements are in place during covid. Maybe they would read a summary to you on the phone, or email a summary. Some record offices also have volunteers there who can help.
    If you are not local & don't mind someone else seeing the file, you could contact the local family history society, to see if anyone visits the record office regularly. They are usually helpful.
    Request Rejected

    Local newspapers from the time may also be here, as well as at the current office of any local paper that still exist

    Assume the grave was originaly purchased & dug deep enough for 3 burials or child plus two adults, probably with the intention of the child & both of its parents. As David says suicide was a crime & although some of the stigma attached to burials of suicides had gone, maybe it was at the time easier to use the existing grave, than have to arrange another.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
  10. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    The only way to get a soldiers service record from 1944 is to follow this link. Cost £ 30 & expect a wait of 12 months at the moment.
    Request records of deceased service personnel
    All you need is the death certificate & his date of birth.

    If you don't have the dob, one place to find it is on the 1939 Register, unless he was already in the army or abroad etc in Sept 1939. The register should be on findmypast & ancestry.
     
  11. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    He isnt on the 1939 register, so assume he was in prison or in active service at that point

    I know I can get his service records, but even my uncles I can put in their service number and get attestations or injury information as I have those already for ww2 soldiers, but his particular service number doesnt match anything on any site I have tried

    Re the Grave, dont know too many details as its deceasedonline who hold the records and a paid service not sure if we can get the deed holder either now , we may have an idea who it is , or certainly someone who may have knew the mother but very difficult to speak to them

    Birmingham archives arent online so it would mean a trip to brum, wich given covid, they may now close, but its worth an email to them at the very least

    Thank you it is much appreciated
     
  12. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Steve & Travers,

    I don't live in Birmingham, but if it needs a personal visit to the City Archives it is only a short train journey away.

    Depending on which cemetery Pte. Ellis is buried in the answer could be with Birmingham City Archives too, although prior to COVID some records were locally held - Books of Remembrance for example. The City Council owns most of the cemeteries I know of; others are I understand non-Christian.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  13. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    Thank you, that is much appreciated

    He is buried in his hometown of Bolton , we arent sure if it was him who was married to our great gran or if it was her 2nd husbands Son, still waiting on the marriage cert for that , this william Ellis was only 36 and buried with great grans 1st Husband and 18 year old Son (who died in a drowning accident at Bolton Baths)
     
  14. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Looking at his number I think he enlisted between May and early September 1939
     
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  15. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Buried at Tonge Cemetery also known as Tonge Fold Cemetery, Bolton?


    Kyle


    Theres a `tree` on Ancestry but it states his hometown/birth place is Birmingham ? (If this is the same one)

    Birth 1908-09 • Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

    Birth of Brother Harold Ellis(1910–)
    Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
    1910

    Residence April 1911 • Smethwick, Worcestershire, England

    Death of Mother Mary (Dandy) Ellis(1863–1922)
    January 1922 • Dudley, Worcestershire, England
    1922

    Death of Father George Albert Ellis(1864–1940)
    September 1940 • Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
    1940

    Death
    October ,Nov,December 1944 • Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

    Siblings

    Selina Frances (Ellis) Doughty
    1889–1958
    George Ellis
    1894–1969
    Lilly Ellis
    1902–1969
    Alfred Ellis
    1907–1977
    Albert Henry Ellis
    1907–1977
    Harold Ellis
    1910–

    Spouse;- unknown
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  16. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    Yes, I have the grave details burial registers but yes thats the one
     
  17. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    For a man who would have been 30 or 31 years old in 1939, this may mean a Territorial Army enlistment, at the time that the TA was being expanded. The 5th Bn Loyal North Lancs "Bolton Rifles", a TA Battalion, had their HQ in Bolton in 1939 and after the 1938 Munich Crisis created a duplicate battalion, the 6th Loyal North Lancs.

    The 5th Bn was converted to 18th Bn, Reconnaissance Corps in 1941, and was lost in the Malaya Campaign early 1942. The 6th Battalion was in 1941 converted to 2nd Battalion Reconnaissance Corps, & later in June 1942 became 2nd Reconnaissance Regiment. By then it was in India & served in the India & Burma campaign until the end of the war.

    Both battalions were mobilised at Derby Barracks Bolton in September 1939, so this may explain William Ellis's absence from the 1939 Register taken at the end of the month.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  18. SteveLunt

    SteveLunt Active Member

    Thanks , we think he was born late 1908 , but that is a guestimate for the moment, but he was 36 in October 1944 when he died

    His Death Cert states Pioneer Corp and service number, but it shows up zero matches anywhere
     
  19. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Just a thought. Could the use of Pte. Ellis being from the Pioneer Corps be a fiction, for whatever reason? As Travers has added the two local units were serving abroad, so could he have been AWOL long term?
    Hopefully one day his service records will be obtained and help your search.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  20. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Pte , he was British.
    Pvt is American.
    (I have to post that everytime.)
     
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