Flakpanzers

One for the Panzer nuts me thinks......Adam !


I've just started reading ATB's 'Battle of the Bulge' and they refer to panzer regiment strengths/allocations of Flakpanzers namely the 'Wirbelwind' and 'Ostwind'. They also refered to flakpanzers in a similiar vain in 'Panzers in Normandy'.

However they fail to mention just how effective they were at providing an effective anti-aircraft defence. Anyone know?

That then led me onto the thinking about Germany's production struggling to produce armour and thought would it not have been more cost effective for them to manufacture more flak platforms like the Zugkraftwagen or the Flak variant on SdKfz 251 platforms instead of panzer platforms?

I know this technically (From current British formations) would be classed as a mechanised vehicle in a Mech. formation rather than a armoured vehicle in a Panzer formation. But the Germans did seem to be cutting back in 1944.

Cheers for your thoughts
Andy

 

Andy,

Here you go.

Wirbelwind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wirbelwind/ Flakpanzer IV/2cm Vierling

The Vierling (4 x 2cm cannon mount) was extremely effective and put up a concentrated fire against low flying planes.

However when used against lightly armoured or soft skinned vehicles it could be deadly.

The 251 halftrack had to be extensively modified just to accept a single 2cm flak cannon and so it made sense to use obsolete chassis to mount different weapons.

There was no time to start complete new projects, so the Germans used what was at hand.


Regards
Tom

 

Cheers Tom,

Point taken on the 251 but according to my source they were already producing Zugcraftwagons before the Wirbelpanzers and Ostpanzers.

The above didn't come into service until Spring of 44 and prior to that the Germans were using the Sdkfz 161/3 'Mobelwagon' (Panzer III Platform).

Regards
Andy

 

Andy,

The Germans were good at utilising obsolete Tank chassis and producing Jagd panzers and the like.

The Mk III panzer was the first so called heavy panzer that the Germans manufactured and was soon passed its sell by date and utilised for anything that was required.

Although the Mk IV was in production until the end, when tanks were damaged, they sometimes came back in a modified form.

Hence the hotch potch of vehicles towards the end of the war.

Regards
Tom

 

Andy,

Link showing the Sd Kfz 161/3

Sd.Kfz.161-3 Flakpanzer IV or Mobelwagen 1943

Flakpanzer IV Mobelwagen (Sd.Kfz.161/3)

The reason it was developed in 1943 was that the short barrelled 7,5cm weapon of the Mk IV was totally inadequate in late 1942 against the Russian T34 Tanks.

The T34 could stand off at 1200 to 1500 metres and destroy the Mk 1V with ease.

The Mk IV with the short 7,5 cm cannon could only penetrate the side armour and frontal armour at 400 metres.

A member of the legion and Ex Bundeswehr Tanker had a father who was a Major and tank commander in Russia and was captured in December of 1942 north west of Stalingrad as the 14 Panzer regiment were decimated by the T34's.

The German tactics had to dangerous as several tanks had to expose themselves in order to attract the T34's into a trap where other German Tanks, hidden on both flanks were waiting to hit the T34's side on. The German bait in the slot was lucky to survive.

The rest is history, the 14th German Panzer Division failed to exist after December 1942 and those who did survive were assimilated into other units.

Under these type of circumstances if the outdated tanks could be modified into something useful they were.

Regards
Tom

 

Cheers Tom, Adam. A couple of shots from Bundes

1.

Normandy.

2.

Arnhem

 

As far as i know the Wirbelwind Vierlings Flak was designed by and first used on the Panzer IV Chassis by SS Panzer Regiment 12 , HJ , they also used a single 20cm Flak gun on a 38 T chassis,

regards

Paul

 

I think one of the big lessons of the 1941 campaigns was the need to provide armour for SP guns of all types. Hence why the unarmoured half-track/Flak 38 combo didn't look so hot anymore.

All the best

Andreas

 

The Sturmartillerie (the guys with the StuG) tinkered together their own Flakpanzer in 1945 by fitting refurbished MkIII chassis with slightly modified "biscuit tins" (Wirbelwind-turrets).
It is said that almost a dozen of these were built shortly before the end of the war. Actually, 90 pieces were to be mounted, but this failed because there were not even enough steel sheets left at that time.
3.7 cm Flak 43 in Keksdose-Turm auf Pz.Kpfw.III Fahrgestell

 

If you add up the totals of Mobelwagens, Wirbelwinds and Ostwinds produced then divide that by number of Panzer Divisions the result is a very small number. That is the real reason they weren't effective; there were never enough.

 

Lets talk survivors. Flakpanzer IV, Saumur.

 

Flakpanzer 38t, Finland.

 

Err, are you sure?
I can't help but see a Landsverk L-62 Anti II......

 

Never! ;-)

 

You are right, wrongly indexed.

 

Ostwind; my cupboard.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...6S1IiIsVRYROGlXRjSkl=w1236-h928-no?authuser=0

 

Not an AA-tank but an armoured half-track; Sd.Kfz. 251/21 - Schützenpanzerwagen (Drilling MG151s). Anti-aircraft and ground support variant equipped with a triple-mount of MG151 autocannon; early version being MG151/15 mm cannon