BEF Personnel convoys 1939.

Discussion in '1940' started by Trux, Mar 3, 2022.

  1. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    I will go there on Friday. Sorry I don't know where to look for the bases, dumps and depots at the French end. Yes I always used to find on previous visits to the Library, that when I got home I started a loist of the other things I should have looked up!

    Roy
     
  2. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Roy,

    I see I expressed myself badly. I do have material on the base areas and rail operations.

    Mike
     
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  3. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Hi Mike, I didn't get to the Maritime Collection until today - explanation below. When I did the staff were very helpful, but the Lloyd's List did not produce any sailings to Brest, just a handful to Le Harve. I will type what I have and send it. What I did chance upon was a series of MB convoys, which you may already have? The series shares the code letters with convoys for Colombo and Port Moresby! What I can glean for the Southampton Brest series is:

    MB1 Sld 10/9 arr 12/9 Castlemoor and Eurymedon latter marked BEF transport; Castlemooor was a tramp ship, I think.
    MB2 14/16 No data
    MB3 No data (I didn't note the dates).
    MB4 17/19 No data
    MB5 19/21 No data
    MB6 21/23 Ashantian, Benalder, Colonial, King William, Matheran, Melrose Abbey II, Strategist ( all ex Melrose Abbey sound like cargo ships.
    MB6R Brest Plymouth, all the above.
    MB7 23/25 no data.
    MB8 27/28 no data
    MB9 29/30 no data
    the series continues into October and maybe beyond if that period is of interest.

    Lean pickings I'm afraid. On Thursday, the day we were due to sign the contract for our new home the seller pulled out; you can imagine the domestic havoc!

    Hopefully as they used to say of the old British Tanker Company - Better Times Coming.

    Roy
     
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  4. Browno

    Browno Fake news challenger

    Hello Mike

    For 51st Division the embarkation plans were detailed in the war diary WO 167/315 - 51 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q).

    It has much more detail about the move than the Divisional HQ war diary. It might be worth having a dig around files like that for extra information. 51st Div's file mentions 50th Div and III Corps so their diaries may have similar detail.

    Here are the BEF war diary numbers

    WO 167/150 II Corps Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/172 III Corps Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/192 1 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/205 2 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/219 3 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/231 4 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/245 5 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/257 12 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/263 23 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/267 42 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/276 44 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/290 48 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/301 50 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/315 51 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/327 52 Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)
    WO 167/335 1 Armoured Division Adjutant and Quartermaster (A Q)

    Cheers

    Adam
     
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  5. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Roy,

    I must offer you my abject apologies. Although I look at the forum several times a day I somehow missed your post. I assumed that you were heavily involved in moving house. I can only attribute my lapse to old age, stupidity and the fact that that our financial advisor, having left it to the last minute because of the various political and economic crises, sent some 200+ pages of documents to read and sign. Plus forms to fill in. I know that most unusually I did not look at the forum for a couple of days.

    A belated thank you for your efforts. Every little helps to build a picture. I have managed to make some progress by cross referencing the various bits and pieces that I have. A careful study of Winsers books gives some facts about individual ships which has enabled me to add some more to the lists. Unfortunately many are listed as sailing from Southampton to France without saying which port and no mention of convoys. A minor stumbling block is the fact that some sources give the date on which ships sailed from Southampton. This is not always the day on which the convoy sailed from the Solent.

    I have not moved house for 47 years and am not tempted to do so. I am sure it used to be easy. Look at the adverts, look at house, agree a price, move in a month later.

    Mike.
     
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  6. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Adam,

    Thank you very much for your suggestion. I do like a good War Diary to read. Often the appendices contain a lot of detail.

    Mike
     
  7. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    My research into the shipping used in the support of the BEF in 1939/40 is progressing slowly but sureley thanks to help from forum members. I have two gaps which you may be able to fill:

    A great deal of petrol was shipped to France in tins but there were facilities in the base area for the storing and handling of bulk petrol. I have not found any mention of bulk petrol being sent from the UK. Can anyone point me towards finding where bulk petrol came from?

    Though not part of the BEF 1 Cavalry Division passed through France on its way to Palestine. It seems that the horses were sent from Dover to Dunkirk. Could this have been by train ferry?

    Thanks in advance.

    Mike.
     
  8. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Mike,

    Sorry can't help with either of those. But it reminds me of another thing. A ship was torpedoed of Bordeaux on about the 19 June with 900 horses from Canada for the battle. I don't know if these were only for the French, or the BEF as well. I also don't know what prior shipments there were. I might have a bit more once we settle in our new home in late July.

    Cheers,

    Roy
     
  9. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Thanks Roy.

    The only horses I have come across are a handful for the Headquarters staff and those in transit to Palestine. I know that Dover to Dunkirk was a train ferry route and that the horses for Palestine went from Dover to Dunkirk and then by rail to Marseilles. I have no evidence that the horses went on a train ferry but it would simplify the task of embarking horses.

    Good luck with the new home.

    Mike.
     
  10. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Thanks Mike, When we get there I will see what else I can find about who those horses were for.

    Roy
     
  11. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member


    Most British and French oil was imported from the Americas, the Dutch West Indies, the Middle East and the Dutch East Indies. So I doubt that there was a need to export in bulk from Britain. Much easier to change tanker destinations.

    Also bear in mind is that there were small oil fields in France (places like Alsace) and refineries to refine crude oil into more usable products like petrol. So how much could be supplied by France?
    https://thebhc.org/sites/default/files/sassi.pdf

    I’ve been looking into oil in the 1930s & WW2 off and on for a while and get a headache trying to figure out who owned what and how it got from a to b.For example over in the Middle East there were oilfields around Kirkuk in Iraq where the licences were held by the Iraq Petroleum Company. IPC was owned by a consortium of American, British, Dutch and French oil companies. From there pipelines ran across the desert to the Med at Haifa and Tripoli (in Palestine and French occupied Lebanon respectively) where there were refineries. That was then being shipped across the Med to France.
    Iraq Petroleum Company - Wikipedia
    Kirkuk–Haifa oil pipeline - Wikipedia

    Someone here was asking about French oil imports so may be of help.
    French oil sources during World War 2 - Axis History Forum
    Someone else said 45% from Middle East, 33% USA 10% Venezuela.

    This book is now available as a free download
    https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/Oil&War_Web_1.pdf

    We forget that North Sea oil only came on line in the 1970s and is already in decline and so how dependent we were then on imports.
     
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  12. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    Hope you don`t mind, here are a few photos of a unit going over to France. Original photos from my collection.
    I bought these photos from Germany, German info on the back of one of the photos. 31 MG unit. 2nd Bn Manchester Regiment, part of 1 Corps, on the way to France. Morris CS8 1500Cwt trucks and a Humber.
    Thanks for the info from Rich and Andrew and Drew.

    Info from Andrew,
    The buildings look like British barracks and the regiment looks like it is lined up either at the time of departure or as a parade a day or so before that to review the completeness of preparations for departure.

    The vehicles are marked exactly as I would expect for service in France. The movement serial in white is 1253 and would only have been painted on just before departure to France. The black shipping cards with weight, height etc in white strapped onto the vehicles were only added specifically for the voyage. The Morris trucks also appear to have a square tactical mark on the rear end of the left side. It is not a white recognition square as a) they were not used for trucks and b) were not introduced until later. Note that they still have their British number plates.

    Unfortunately I don't have their diary to pin down the date or place but I know from another document that on 16th September 1939 they received their movement order to go to Southampton for embarkation for France so these photos must have been taken on or very close to that date.

    Drew sent me this info.
    It is Aldershot. According to the war diary. My guess is either 6th September 1939 or the morning the following day as the diary records them all lining up on the road to be inspected by the King.
    Keith
    bef bikes.jpg morris 15cwt trucks in the uk back of photo.jpg morris mg unit 36.jpg morris 15cwt trucks in the uk.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  13. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    You can see part of the movement serial in white, 1253 on the bikes.
    bikes close up.jpg
     
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  14. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Thank you Ewen and Keith.

    I have read a bit about oil and geopolitics in the 20th century. Fascinating stuff.

    I always like photos of pristine army vehicles.

    More later. I am rather busy today. This is very unusual.

    Mike
     
  15. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Ewan.

    I had assumed that we imported crude oil and refined it in the UK in the same way that we imported raw cotton rather than cotton cloth and clothing and iron ore instead of steel. I now see that a lot of oil was refined at or near the source. Since the main BEF bulk petrol depot was at Nantes with a smaller and later depot at Le Havre it would seem sensible to deliver direct to those French ports. I will look further.

    Thanks for pointing me in what is hopefully the right direction.

    Mike.

    PS.
    I have a sixth share in an oil well in the USA. A great aunt married a farmer and they migrated to the US to claim a free square mile of land in the mid west. The farmer died and great aunt sold the land but not the mineral rights. Standard Oil found oil, drilled a well and agreed an annual retainer and one eighth share of the profits. Since I inherited it has only produced a small amount of natural gas and nothing at all in the last six years. Still it looks good on my list of assets.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2022
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