1 East Surreys Sicily

Discussion in 'Italy' started by LarryNunn, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. LarryNunn

    LarryNunn Junior Member

    Larry

    Just spotted an earlier query of yours:


    The short answer to all above is YES, as the only Light Ack Ack Rgt in 78 Div we were very much part and parcel of every phase in Sicily and all thise names mean a lot to me,

    As far as Adrano was concerned, it certainly inspired me to write the only poem I have ever written:


    I've heard it said that everyone has at least one poem inside them.

    I wrote mine after passing through Adrano in Sicily, shortly after 78 Div infantry had taken the town.

    "Darkness was falling as we entered the town, but t'was light enough still to see
    The shattered ruins of what had been, a town, in Sicily.

    It wasn't much to call a town, compared with those of greater size.
    It wasn't built for modern war and now a stinking heap it lies,
    Rotting beneath the azure skies, of Sicily.

    It seemed as if an angry God had run amok with gory hands,
    Then dropped a veil, a canopy, of dirty, blinding, choking sands
    And as to wreak his vengeance more
    Had propped a body in each door

    We drove on by with sober thought,
    Of those poor bastards who'd been caught,
    We grimaced at the sick, sweet, smell, of this small piece of man made hell

    This could be you, the bodies said, this could be you, soon gone, soon dead
    We hurried by, enough to be, alive that day, in Sicily"

    Ron

    Thank you for your poem Ron, the impression it creates certainly fits with the descriptions I have from other sources, describing the sickly sweet smell of rotting bodies, the blanket of dusk etc.

    It would appear from what you report that your unit entered Adrano late in the day on 7th, presumably after the town had fallen and I wonder if from whatever vantage point you may have had, whether you can recall any of the details of the preceeding ground battle?

    For example, was there as far as you can recollect any fighting as the 78th entered Adrano, or was their advance through the town unopposed?
     
  2. sicily43

    sicily43 Senior Member

    hello, I saw that the British conquered Adrano at 4 pm on Aug. 7, and that Bronte was taken after 24 hours of violence, then on August 8th.
    The entrance to Bronte was tough because of the difficulty of the terrain and the violent clashes in its suburbs.
    The clashes took place with the German group Smalz trying to protect the line ETNA and retreat.
     
  3. LarryNunn

    LarryNunn Junior Member

    hello, I saw that the British conquered Adrano at 4 pm on Aug. 7, and that Bronte was taken after 24 hours of violence, then on August 8th.
    The entrance to Bronte was tough because of the difficulty of the terrain and the violent clashes in its suburbs.
    The clashes took place with the German group Smalz trying to protect the line ETNA and retreat.

    Hi Sicily43,

    It is interesting, that Adrano was not taken until 4.00 pm on the 7th August, as the attack started at c. 6.00 am, early in the morning, and this indicates that there was a significant amount of fighting and that the town did not fall "unopposed" to British forces as the military histories tend to indicate.

    Thank you, and what is the source of your information?
     
  4. sicily43

    sicily43 Senior Member

    the source is the italian book "La guerra a Catania"(the war in Catania)
     
  5. LarryNunn

    LarryNunn Junior Member

    the source is the italian book "La guerra a Catania"(the war in Catania)

    Thanks, Sicily43, would it be possible for you to post on this forum the pages from the book that refer to Adrano and Bronte, please?

    I would be grateful if you could.
     
  6. sicily43

    sicily43 Senior Member

    i post some pages, but are in italian.
    I one they write Adrano were conqured the 7 mornig with out fight, but in another book they write the hour of conquered at 4 pm of 7.
    But in all write of heavy fight in Bronte the night of 7.
    Near bronte there is Nelson castel(temporary italian HQ), so was very symbolic the entry of england army in this town.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. LarryNunn

    LarryNunn Junior Member

    i post some pages, but are in italian.
    I one they write Adrano were conqured the 7 mornig with out fight, but in another book they write the hour of conquered at 4 pm of 7.
    But in all write of heavy fight in Bronte the night of 7.
    Near bronte there is Nelson castel(temporary italian HQ), so was very symbolic the entry of england army in this town.

    Thank you for that information Sicily43, it is indeed frustrating that the military histories contradict each other regarding the amount of resistence encountered at Adrano.

    This is the issue that we need to resolve.
     
  8. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Larry, just to let you know I've copied the war diary pages for you. I've sent you a PM about it.

    Lee
     
  9. LarryNunn

    LarryNunn Junior Member

    Larry, just to let you know I've copied the war diary pages for you. I've sent you a PM about it.

    Lee

    Thanks Lee, you have done a great job and having read through the reports, it would seem that my father was one of the eleven people injured by an 'S' mine on the road into Adrano on the 7th August. There were no other casualties reported for the Surreys that day, and they were schrapnel wounds that my father suffered. A cheque is on its way with my thanks and if anyone else is considering using Lee's services, I would recommend
    that they do so.

    For those who are not familliar with 'S' mines, that name is an abbreviation of 'Schrapnellmine', a kind of anti-personnel mine invented by the Germans in 1935. The mine was about the size of a family size tin of beans and contained two explosive charges. When triggered, the first charge would simply be sufficient to launch the previously buried mine approximately three feet into the air. At this point the second and much larger charge would shower the surrounding area with a lethal spray of schrapnel composed of ball bearings and other irregularly shaped pieces of metal.

    The Americans nicknamed them a 'Bouncing Betty' because of the action of 'bouncing' into the air prior to detonation of the main charge.

    See: S-mine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    One last question that Lee may be able to advise me of. The military reports refer to map grid references. Are these references able to be plotted on modern commercially available maps of Sicily, or would I need to get copies of the military maps of that time?
     
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  10. sicily43

    sicily43 Senior Member

    you have to see what kind of map use.
    if there are any coordinates (ie grids) are topographic maps.
    you must see the kind of reference grid.
    These are postwar maps 1970(military for civilians) 1:25.000.
    is all the way from Adrano in Bronte
     

    Attached Files:

  11. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Thanks Lee, you have done a great job and having read through the reports, it would seem that my father was one of the eleven people injured by an 'S' mine on the road into Adrano on the 7th August...

    My pleasure Larry and pleased to hear you've found some useful information.

    Those "S" mines were an especially nasty little device. My grandfather recalls several incidents with them in North Africa:

    2 & 3 Sections were clearing mines, at Sidi Mediene on the 28th April 1943 when 3 "S" mines exploded and killed Lt Foster Anderson and Spr Chalkly; Major Hedley the OC and seven Sappers were wounded by these exploding mines.

    ...Sapper Crowe trod on a “S” mine on the 5th June 1943 but had the presence of mind to shout and fall flat on the ground, other members of the mine clearing party fell flat on hearing the shout and fortunately no casualties occurred.


    One last question that Lee may be able to advise me of. The military reports refer to map grid references. Are these references able to be plotted on modern commercially available maps of Sicily, or would I need to get copies of the military maps of that time?

    Here's a great thread regarding map coordinates and how they can be converted to something more useful today:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/25785-converting-wartime-coordinates-modern-map-coordinates.html

    Lee
     
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  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    If you have trouble with that online coord translator, post the co-ords on here & we'll convert them for you.
     
  13. LarryNunn

    LarryNunn Junior Member

    Thanks for the help everyone.

    The advice given by Owen on the other thread works well and I can now plot all of the movements.

    Cheers!
     
  14. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Larry

    Thank you for your poem Ron, the impression it creates certainly fits with the descriptions I have from other sources, describing the sickly sweet smell of rotting bodies, the blanket of dusk etc.

    It would appear from what you report that your unit entered Adrano late in the day on 7th, presumably after the town had fallen and I wonder if from whatever vantage point you may have had, whether you can recall any of the details of the preceeding ground battle?

    For example, was there as far as you can recollect any fighting as the 78th entered Adrano, or was their advance through the town unopposed?


    Just spotted that you asked a direct question that I failed to answer at the time.

    As you well know, I was not an infantry wallah so I've had to go to page 99 of Ken Ford's "Battleaxe Division" for the answer;

    The next objective of the Division was Adrano. The scout cars of 56 Recce Rgt. reached the outskirts of the town first and immediately lost three of it's vehicles to mines and shelling. ........ Bombers, operating from the newly captured airfields at Gerbini raided the town on the night of 6/7 August. This was followed by an artillery barrage that seemed "to lift the town out of the ground". At daybreak, the East Surreys led 11th Brigade and moved in. Adrano was taken unnoposed


    Sorry for the delayed response :)

    Ron
     
  15. Crosbygirl

    Crosbygirl Junior Member

    Hello Larry,

    From one new "explorer" to another I have just posted my request on the Italy Section of WW2 talk.

    "Hello,
    Just discovered that my late father JAMES RICHARD MIDDLETON left his original posting (Gunner Driver) with 110/39 LAA Regiment, Royal Artillery and was transferred to 1st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment, who were in 11th Infantry Brigade, 78th Infantry Division. In the winter of 1945 he was with the V (BR) Corps who were themselves under command of the British 8th Army. Dad was at the battle for the Argenta Gap 12-19 April in the final phase of the war. I suspect he was a driver in the East Surrey Motor Transport Platoon moving troops, supplies and ammunition. When the war ended his Battalion was moved to Austria.
    In May 1945 he was posted to AFHQ in the Staff and Services pool that I think was in Vallach. In August he was again re-posted, this time to HQ 55 Area Staff and Services Pool.

    Is anyone able to provide me with further information please? Is it likely that I might be able to find War Diaries at TNA on the aforementioned V (BR) Corp and the East Surrey Motor Transport Platoon?

    My thanks for anyone's assistance, it will be very much appreciated.
    Best wishes to all
    Ann"

    I have received some replies and a couple of websites to look at and books to buy. My Dad wasn't in Sicily, he was in the RA and transferred later on in the war to the East Surrey Regiment.
    Happy to share what I have discovered.
     
  16. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Ann,

    I doubt LarryNunn will get sight of your message as he hasn't posted a message on the forum since 2011. If you want to communicate with him your best bet is to send him a Personal Message. Just click on his Avatar and then click on the ‘start a conversation’ option and a message box opens so you can write some text to send him.

    Good Luck

    Steve
     
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  17. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Are we talking about the Mortar Platoon attached to the 1 East Surreys?

    The Imperial War Museum holds this film:

    ATTACK BY 1ST BATTALION, EAST SURREY REGIMENT FROM DJEBEL EL OUATIAH TO TOUKABEUR

    Part of the description:

    A 3 inch mortar being fired. The mortar platoon sergeant receives fire orders by radio transmitter and gives the order. The tank "Revenge" of the Intelligence Officer of the 142nd Regiment Royal Armoured Corps moving along the crest of a hill... Another company of the East Surreys moves up for the second attack. Panning shot from the enemy machine gun pit. The infantry go over for the second attack. Mortar carriers moving down the slope, following the infantry...A carrier unloading ammunition for the tanks..
    .


    Vitellino
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
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  18. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  19. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    A reference to the use of gunners as reinforcements for the 1 East Surreys can be found here:
    IWM 80/2/1 Major R.C. Taylor
    Collection of documents relating to his service as a Regular officer with the 1st Battalion East Surrey Regiment (11th Brigade, 78th Division) during the Second World War

    Major Taylor comments on the fact that the battalion received officers and men from ''from the DCLI, Royal Norfolks, Royal Sussex, Highlanders, and eventually Gunners''. (Page 34)
     
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  20. Crosbygirl

    Crosbygirl Junior Member

    Hi Steve,

    Not to worry. From the War Diaries both the 111 and 110 seem to be in action together or relieve one another, so I thought we might be able to help one another.

    Kind regard
    Ann
     

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