13118381 Frank De ANGELI, 56 Recce, (78 Division - BattleAxe)

That is a great disappointment, hopefully something useful will transpire.

 

The visitor centre dedicated to the Isle of Man POWs was opened last year. They undertake research if you sponsor a bed in the recreated WW1 hut.

Knockaloe Internment Camp Isle of Man

 

I know ! for my mother who served in the ATS i received a package back in about 6 weeks. i don't understand everything they sent, lots of acronyms, but i have it. w

 

Hi,

It’s a while since I applied for a service record but I don’t remember the “caveat” about damaged records.

In any event I’d personally give it until the end of the month and give the named MOD Glasgow contact a ring on the telephone number on the standard letter and ask for an update.

Steve

 

Are these your family members naturalisation certificates? If you don't have them Lee or Andy might be able to copy them for you at Kew in London. They contain a lot of information.
Search results: "De Angeli" | The National Archives

 

Double posted for some reason

 

yes Frank De Angeli is my dad. i was able to request these and i have them. Jenny was his stepmother, his father's 2nd wife. i did not know until i did this search that she had become an Italian citizen - she was born in London Jenny Harding. my dad told me that after he enlisted in the Reconnaissance Corps that the Pioneer Corps men were offered a chance to change their names if they wanted. My father had been using Frank (was born Franco) and he dropped the middle names. my father said that one of the men who had a passing resemblance to Clark Gable took that name which made my dad smile. my dad went on to serve in Italy as you know. he was told at the time if he was caught by the Italians/Germans he would be shot as a traitor.

 

________________________________________________________________here is the letter I received Nov 27 2019. I emailed Ms. Bovill Jan 17 ? or so and she replied on Jan 30 saying they have a tremendous backlog, but they have located a file for my father. she said she did not know what was in it. she said she would mail it to me with 2 weeks which would be about the end of this week. I am in the US so it should arrive if mailed this week sometime end of next week. if not, then i will try again.

Dear Ms De Angeli



Frank De Angeli


Thank you for your recent application accompanied by your payment, completed Certificate of Kinship and Search Document.


Before we proceed I should explain that the contents of Officers’ files can be disappointingly sparse. Army Form (AF) B199A, providing a chronological record of promotions, postings and appointments, was in use for Officers from 1914 until Army personnel records were computerised in the early 1970s. Unfortunately, because it was always maintained and stored separately from the personal file, losses are frequent and for pre-Second World War service particularly these documents are invariably missing. This is because many were victims of the bombing of the Army Records Centre, Arnside Street, on 8 September 1940, when countless records were destroyed by fire.


Where an AF B199A survives it is invaluable as without it an Officer’s personal file tends to consist of miscellaneous correspondence and the contents are singularly unhelpful in providing a comprehensive record of service. In the absence of an AF B199A in respect of your request any document providing any detail of service will be copied and sent to you but it is unlikely that what is available will provide a full record of the individual’s service.


You should also be aware that unfortunately, due to the very high volume of family interest enquiries we receive it can take longer than we would like to complete these tasks.


Please accept my apologies for the delay and I will write to you in due course.


Yours sincerely



Janice Bovill

Administrative Officer

Historical Disclosures

 

yes . Frank De Angeli is my father. He was naturalized after the war, and after he was demobbed , in 1947. He was in the 56 Recce attached to the 78 BattleAxe division . After Austria, my father was put with some other young Recces into the 12 Royal Lancers. my profile pic here is from the 12 Royal Lancers time. the 12 Royal Lancers were due to be sent to was in the Pacific. After Hiroshima/Nagazaki bombings, 12 Royal Lancers was sent to Palestine instead, to keep the peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

My father was born in Italy in 1924 and traveled to England on his father's Italian passport when he was 4 years old. So I don't think he actually had an Italian passport but he was entitled to one and considered an enemy alien. The family lived in London.

he was a schoolboy when war broke out and was evacuated with his school. When he was 16, he was asked by his stepmother (who was known to all as Dorothy but apparently her birthname was Jenny) to return to London to help support her while my grandfather was interned in the Isle of Man. when he turned 18 in August 1942, he enlisted in the Pioneer Corps which was the only branch open to enemy aliens.

In I think sometime in early 44?, the British Govt allowed some bilingual Italians and Germans to enlist in SOE type work. My father tried but his Italian was not good enough. Then I believe april 1944 there was a broader opening, and the aliens in the Pioneer Corps were able to enlist in fighting units. My father chose the Recce. He had a very dear friend from the Pioneer Corps (still alive) who enlisted in 9th Commandos. so my dad was still Italian and his friend was still German while they were both enlisted in the British army and being shot at. Dr Helen Fry has written couple books about enemy aliens who enlisted. His Majesty's Loyal Enemy Aliens i think is one.

My grandfather and his 2nd wife were married in Spring 1940 I believe and My grandfather was interned in the late spring or summer of 1940. Anyway, i don't understand why, perhaps it was required, but Dorothy/Jenny must have taken out Italian citizenship upon her marriage, as she had to renounce it and get her British citizenship back in May 1943.

i only have one very poor photo of him from the Recce. He came later so is not in any of the group photos. he would have come in after Rome where some photos were taken. He was in Rietro in Dec 44/Jan 45, i think that was when the Recce were put into the RAC? and he was definitely there for Operations Grapeshot - the River Senio/Argenta Gap.

 

Hi, i have been in touch with them. they say they have much more information about the WWI internees. they did a quick check but could not fund anything about my grandfather Antonio De Angeli, who was there for years. i also asked about my father's great friend from the Pioneer Corps, as the friend, Ludwig Berlin. was in the Isle of Man as an enemy alien. he must have been there when my grandfather was although of course they did not know each other then - Ludwig had not yet met my dad. One of the ways to get off the Douglas camp was to join the Pioneer Corps., which is exactly what Ludwig did. Ludwig was a German refugee a few years older than my father (born maybe 1921?). My grandfather on the other hand had fought the entire WWI in the italian army - born i think in 1892. I don't know if he was not given the option because he was too old or because he had actually been in the Italian army but at any rate, he was there for years, with 2 sons in service trying to get him out.

 

here is the email. I did look under PEOPLE as she suggested and did not get anything either. i tried to buy the book she recommended and the order form would not recognise my US address. so working on that!

Dear Jane,


Firstly, my sincere apologies for the delay in getting back to you. We are still trying to catch up after the festive period. Secondly, thank you so much for contacting us regarding your grandfather Antonio DeAngeli, and also Ludwig Berlin.


The focus of the Charity has very much been about the internees of WW1, the vast majority of whom were interned in our village where we hold our huge Database of all WW1 internees.


We do, however, often receive queries about WW2 internees, and incredibly some of our WW1 internees who had ended up not being naturalised were interned in WW2 as well, thankfully for only a short time. We have added just a little in the Visitor Centre about WW2 internment but it is a huge topic in its own right.


But as so many people do contact us we wanted to see how we can help as there isn’t an equivalent central source for WW2 internment. There is an excellent new book which specifically looks at WW2 internment on the Isle of Man which is a fabulous resource and is written by Alan Franklin. I have had a look via the index for your both grandfather and Ludwig and sadly cannot find any specific reference however there is all sorts of information about the Palace Camp and WW2 internment. If you would like a copy see https://www.knockaloe.im/product_611756.html


We do want to update our website with more information for people wanting to find out more as we do get many, many enquiries – the website will be pointing people in the direction of The Isle of Man Government’s Archive (the imuseum) which also has an excellent list of sources for WW2 internment which you can download and which has various links at https://manxnationalheritage.im/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/WWII-Internment-Sheet-Library-and-Archive-Service-Digital.pdf . Do also look at the UK National Archives at Kew who have a superb collection of UK Government files relating to the internees and the camps via https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/internees/

 

Sorry to hear the problems you are having with getting hold of your father's (Frank De Angeli) service records, but looking at the reply you had from Glasgow, your post #28, one thing is confusing me (easily done). The reply states that "Officers’ files can be disappointingly sparse" and refers to Army Form B199A which, I believe, relates to officers.

In my post #8 there was a page from 56 Recce's diaries that mentioned your father, re-attached here:


This states that he was a Trooper which would be 'other ranks' and not an officer, the page is dated 20 March 1945 so getting on for the end of the war.

Did he get a subsequent promotion?

 

Hi Tony56, thank you for your post. I received the package yesterday! So this is what i can report about rank.
He was in the army through 1947, in Palestine. so in 1944 he was a TPR in Recce as you found, and then in the 12th Royal Lancers. In 1946 he was promoted to UA/CPL, PA/CPL. and W/CPL. and in 1947 he was promoted to PA/SGT. He was allocated to army reserve group P and eligible for recall until age 45, which would have been till 1969. there is a note he was discharged in 1955. but i am aware he took a training course in i think it is 1958 for Paymaster.

I also have some updates about that confusing time between the Pioneer Corps and Recce 56. As you may recall, as an Italian he was not allowed to enlist in a fighting unit until late 1943.
In Oct 1943 he was transferred to Recce Corps and posted to REG Mg CENTER (Not sure) in Gloucester.
as of 1 Jan 1944 he was transferred to R.A.C. (Recce Corps).
April 1944 he was posted to 80 Recce Regt.
Sept 1944 he passed a driver mechanics course in Manchester and was classified D/M Class II. Group D. and his unit for that line is given as 38 Recce.
in 1944 in an almost illegible line his unit is given as the 80 Recce.
in August 1944 he attended Carrier Maintenance Course at Ford Motors Result D. Still 38 Recce, he was mustered as a D&H (?) mechanic group D class II.
He embarked 3 Nov 1944 and arrived 29 Nov 1944. His unit then is given as X (4).
He was transferred to 56 Recce March 13 1945. A couple lines later there are notes about transfers to X2 list.
In October 1945 he was posted to 12 Royal Lancers.
He was given leave in Nov 1945 ending early Dec, and then was sent back to Milan briefly and then transferred to MEF in 10 Jan 46. and arrived in the ME Jan 13 1946. (Palestine). the picture we have of him that i use for my logon is very likely taken at this time. i think he may have requested his British passport at that time and perhaps this was his official photo.

i have a lot of paper to go through! a lot of it is repetitive but some gems for sure. I have to go out of town but i will go through it more slowly next week and perhaps scan some of the key pages.

One thing, i was a bit confused about the role of Brigade. i understand that 56 Recce, for the northern italian campaigns, was grouped within the 38 Irish Brigade along with i think 3 Irish battalions. Was the brigade a strong part of the regiments identity, or was this more administrative? my dad said when the infantry engaged, the younger Recce (including him) went into the line and fought with the infantry. did that mean the men he was with then were likely from one of the 3 Irish Fusilier battalions? i did look at the 38irish brigade website and corresponded with the administrator who was the son of a 38 brigade veteran. i;ll find that email.

i did want to let all know i have finally received them.

 

Great news, look forward to seeing the records, folks around here will be pleased to help you interpret them.

To be going on with I will give a brief outline of the role 56 Recce played. The 78th Infantry Division was nicknamed the Battleaxe division by virtue of its formation sign.


It consisted of 3 brigades and other than a short period in North Africa these were:
11th Infantry Brigade
2nd Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers
1st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment
5th (Huntingdonshire) Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment

36th Infantry Brigade
5th Battalion, Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment)
6th Battalion, Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment
7th Battalion, Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment (until 20 August 1942)
8th Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (from 21 August until 25 December 1942, then between 16 February 1943 and 27 February 1943, finally from 24 March until the end of the war.)

38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade (from 15 March 1943)
2nd Battalion, London Irish Rifles
1st Battalion, Royal Irish Fusiliers
6th Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (disbanded 5 August 1944)
2nd Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (from 26 July 1944)

56 Recce were one of the Divisional troops and as such operated when and where required, other than HQ, the regiment consisted of 3 squadrons A, B and C, each of which consisted of a number of troops. It was not uncommon for one of the 3 squadrons to operate with one of the 3 infantry brigades. As far as the work they did, obviously reconnaissance but also attached to one of the brigades when they were in action and a lot of infantry work in their own right.

Towards the end of 1945 the Reconnaissance Regiments were disbanded and personnel were transferred to other units, 56 Recce became non-operational on 6 Nov 1945 and the exercise was completed on 31 December. See diary extract below.

 

Good to see that you've landed safely - I'm the "administrator" referred to above..follow the threads as they emerge here but just a few specific comments on your last note:

- not "3 Irish battalions", 2 were based in Northern Ireland, 1 in London - all had plenty of Irishmen within their ranks of course.The CO of 56 Recce for most of the campaign was a commissioned Royal Irish Fusiliers' officer and a good friend of the Brigade Commander of the Irish Brigade

- 56 Recce were a completely distinct unit from the Faughs, Skins and London Irish and the other infantry battalions but supported the 78th Division all the way from Tunisia up to the Po.

- for the final push through the Argenta Gap, the Irish Brigade were "carried" by various cavalry units... but 56 Recce were fighting close by.

 

Some comments on your father's records that you posted above, #33.

1 January 1944 is when the Reconnaissance Corps were absorbed into the Royal Armoured Corps.

80 Recce - Formed in January 1943, as a holding and training regiment, they were renamed 38 Recce in October 1944, doing the same work and stationed in Morecambe. 38 Recce - Formed in October 1943 and disbanded in October 1944 when name was taken by 80 Recce.

The war diary extract in post #32 above is obviously his posting when he joined 56 Recce.

X lists are where servicemen are allocated when they are absent or between units, they have to be accounted for somewhere.
X (iv) list comprises all unposted reinforcements and incoming reinforcement drafts.
X (ii) list comprises all ranks evacuated on medical grounds beyond Regimental Aid Post, could be either injury or sickness for example.
Associated with X lists are the abbreviations SOS (Struck off Strength) or TOS (Taken on Strength) so it is likely your father was SOS from 56 Recce and TOS X (ii) list, this would be reversed when he rejoined.

He was with 56 Recce for only a short period and I would recommend reading their war diaries, courtesy of RecceMitch, for that period.
56th Recce War Diary

 

The Alien Internee cards from WW2 are now on ancestry & there are three cards for the OP's grandfather. This is the most informative:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interact...94.1321967745.1581535404-887709386.1581433273

No Ludwig Berlin is listed, and while only a few with the surname Berlin, there are many Ludwigs.

 

thank you for the notes. Tony56, yes got it. one battalion was London Irish and together with the Faughs and Skins they made up the 38th "Irish Brigade". Because he was born in Italy and his father was in the Italian Army for all of the Great War, he was not allowed to enlist in a fighting unit until Spring 44. prior to that he was in the Pioneer Corps in Long Marsden mostly.

i know he went first to Denbigh and then to training in Catterick. He was with the 38 Recce for training on Carrier Maintenance at Ford Motor Co from July - Aug. whereupon was mustered as a " D&H? Mech G/2 D"? (Not sure hard to read ), in Sept. still 38 Recce.

He left England on Nov 3 1944. That is where it says T.O.S. from X(4) List. Adm. 11 FA and posted to X(2) List. Dis(patched?) to unit and T.O.S. from X4 List that is March 1945. That is where he met Lt John (Johnny ) K . Edwards who received the Silver Star I believe noted elsewhere in this thread, and Edwards took my dad in his group as he knew him from London through my dad's elder brother. So it just seemed rather a long time for him to be at RACTD from Nov 29 to march 45. was that usual?

the reason i was asking about the Irish Brigade was this. I know my father was in the 78 Division and there were the 3 . He said that the infantry was moving, obviously they would be ahead and scout. he said when the infantry engaged the enemy, the Recce unit would pull the vehicles into a circle, he called it a kraal; the older men would stay with the vehicles and the younger men (of which he was one) would join with the infantry for the fight. I was just trying to work out which infantry he would have been with. One battle he mentioned in particular was the the River Senio.

he was in Austria i do know that . he was posted to 12 Royal Lancers in Oct 45. he had leave in the UK and then to the Middle East (Palestine) . he was i Palestine until Oct 47, then in the reserves , and discharged in1955. whew.

 

Thank you Travers1940, i don't have access to Ancestry but i have seen some records in a similar system, although i think just 2 so not sure what the 3rd is. My grandfather was born in 1892 in Verona, northern Italy and served with the Italian infantry in the Dolomites in the Great War. after the war came to UK. he was first taken to Palace on the isle of Man and then to Metropole. I don't know when he was released but both my dad and my uncle (also in uniform) lobbied to have him released. I cannot account for why Ludwig Berlin is not listed . he was there at the beginning of the war but quickly enlisted in Pioneer Corps as many did, if they could, to get out of the Internment Camps. He later served with the 9 Commandos and fought in Italy. He was a couple years older than my dad. His is an amazing story.

 

I think it was DM for Driver Mechanic!