14,000 Dog-tag return mission: Recce help esp welcome

Dave

....in which case, one possibility is that these guys were still classed as Reserve pending call up for Korea? Discs made - minds changed/numbering changed - discs dumped......job done.

 

Highly possible, yes...(but... call up for anywhere in the 1950's really, not just Korea. The discs would simply have just been kept in stores ready for when and if needed). As an aside, I've just looked at the website describing the 'evidence' for them being WW2 'invasion of Japan' discs and am now 99.9% certain (as opposed to my previous 99%! ) that my theory is actually correct (the 'photographic evidence' mentioned (but not illustrated) on there actually post-dates 1949!)

Dave

 

Thanks for replying Dave.
I agree with you that one possible theory is that the dog tags were not for serving soldiers but the reserve.
The reason I think this, is that I referred to a typed list of soldiers army numbers from the 56th Recce war diary, I think from December 1943-from C Squadron that I just happened to have handy, and not one of the numbers (well over 100 of them) I typed in the search engine of ERH came up with a hit.
I shall probably have to do a bit more research on the lists again but I remain unconvinced about it all to be honest.

Pity the chap took his toys out of the pram when questioned about it all.

Lesley

 

Dave

Possibly coincidence but, bearing in mind all discs apparently relate to RAC/Recce(believe that's correct), 1949 or thereabouts is also the time when all AFVs were renumbered - not just Army Numbers changing over to Service Numbers. Could all be part of a 'grand scheme' that was eventually aborted or they were simply dumped when the guys came off the Reserve list. My own instinct still says WW2 related and likely Japan campaign because of the weird combination of 24th Lancers and 3RTR personnel mentioned in earlier posts.

 

I totally agree about the toys out of the pram bit. The OP should have taken on board the various comments: if he had, he would now be getting lots more help! Always helps to listen: 'two eyes, two ears and one mouth' and all that. Fascinating thread and the discs are clearly not fakes!

 

Agreed... but, if WW2, then I simply cannot get my head around the discs being totally of the wrong pattern(s) for the era and being manufactured a good 15 years before this pattern became general issue! (Just been going through my files and the earliest reference to an issue of these '1960 pattern' discs (or something very similar) that I can find dates from 1952 - though that is uncorroborated - and 1955/6 for a corroborated example!)

(and don't forget that a soldier who might have been issued with (for example) a 24th Lancers number may not have actually ever seen active service with them. 1921-1950 Army numbers only represent the unit into which a soldier originally enlisted (1920 numbers could be the unit in which a soldier was serving at the time of the 1920 Regimental number to Army number change)

Dave

 

Just looked at some of the army and service numbers from these tags listed on the site and, other than a few real oddball numbers thrown in, I note that there are actually quite a lot of post-1950 service numbers on there - with some issued as late as 1964 - which makes me now even more certain that they're 1950's and onwards unissued reservists tags.

It'd be interesting to know what this 'anti-aircraft site' really was (or, at least what it became post-war)... appears to me to have been some sort of depot. I strongly suspect that those tags have only been underground since some point between the mid 1960's and the 1980's (and did no-one who was there actually ask themselves the question about 'why' they found so many in one place?)

Dave

 

I wasn't questioned, so much as told what I was doing was pretty much a waste of time.

 

Ah I see you are still with us on the forum then Dan.

Here's a question for you then. How about posting some of the names and numbers of some of the '1060' boys you promised in your post #16 earlier on in this thread? You stated you had 109, '1060' tags.

Some pretty clued-up Recce guys (and a gal) on here so come on, give us a chance to get somewhere with this.

Lesley

 

Hello all, I'm back again as I noticed an email from this site, I never noticed any before now.

These dog-tags all related to soldiers from two groups, those that were serving during WW2 or Post war.

The post war tags all contain either 21 or 22 starting numbers. All of which also were part of RAC units as confirmed by searching the archives at Bov. The archivist team all confirm that every number and name I gave them was part of the RAC. Not only that, but I gave them the full list I had at the time and they randomly picked some from that, again all proved to be RAC, even the ones the didn't think would have anything to do with RAC. The IWM have no interest in the dog-tags, I met one of the team there and he showed me some of the dog-tags that they have stored away (they don't display them, not with this 'new style of museums') and they weren't interested in displaying any. All the dog-tags will stay with me, until they are either sent to the families/veterans or if this can't be done. Some family lines have died off completely and some names it is impossible to tell apart from 100's of other people with the same name. 'Smith's being a particular problem.

The WW2 tags all where to be replacement dog-tags, as per recommendations from General Lethbridges reports done in the Middle East all about the equipment needed for the planned invasion of mainland Japan. His files are held at Kings College London archives room, these are very interesting! All the names and numbers on these tags relate to serving soldiers from WW2. Some enlisted pre WW2, some volunteered, most of which were called up. From the research done relating to individual numbers you can see soldiers from every theatre, reports of all natures (wounded, POWS, gallantry, foreign awards etc). These dog-tags were dug up, despite all the crazy theories that I made them all and either said I dug them up, or I planted them and then dug them. I am still digging these up, I have no idea how many there are still to dig, I usually recover around 1000 per trip. As great as these are, its gets very monotonous and so my limit in patience when digging diminishes fast!

If you want examples of soldiers that served from an area, a year, or issued by an issuing block of numbers this can be done. Or examples of MM winners, MiD's, foreign awards, PoWs. The most interesting PoW tag that has come to light now was a RAC Trooper that was captured during the Korean War. Unlike the 100,000+ WW1 soldiers and 200,000+ WW2 troops that were made PoW's only around a 1,000 Commonwealth soldiers were made PoW. Revealing a whole different aspect to my learning from these dog-tags. Don't ask for the complete list, as that would have such a negative effect on trying to return these, people could pick and choose them as they wanted. You find a collected who wouldn't want dog-tags relating to MM winners, PoW's etc.. let alone to the proposed invasion of Japan. Posting this list would undermine everything, at the moment people contact us asking if we have Uncle Bobs dog-tag and his service number was 79xxxxx...

If anyone every wants to meet me and discuss these dog-tags, view the list and see all these dog-tags then please feel free. I hope these will help put all these weird conspiracies to bed. I live in Stansted, right on the Herts/Essex border, moved her from Oxfordshire last year. The offer is a sincere one, please feel free to contact me via email directly or through my website.

I already feel that writing this is going to fall on deaf ears or 'eyes', but I thought it was at least worthy of one last attempt of making you all realise that this is what it is and nothing more sinister. I would like to pose a question though, if this isn't what I say these are, why am I doing this. If I faked all the tags, that would have cost me a ridiculous amount of money, let alone all the time to research all these names and numbers to put on the tags. Where would I get all these blank tags from? If I found them and they aren't what I say they are, what would I get out of all this? I have spent hundreds on folders, wooden storage boxes and cleaning materials just to be able to sort these... yet I don't ask a penny. Sure donations are welcome, but even my postage costs so far are well over £100. Forgetting the time that has gone into this project, thank god I am retired, a day doesn't go by when hours are spent working on this. I would love to know peoples theories on why I am doing this if what I say isn't true.

Dan

 

OK, here are all the 1060's so far... as you can see there are most than a 109 now. Dug more, cleaned more and more added. Please don't post these anywhere else though. Wasn't too happy about posting so many names in one place, but as you folks are so doubtful...

10602701 CRAWFORD RB
10603345 BEDELL W
10600851 BESWICK C
10602384 BEVAN RE
10601038 BICKERSTAFF C
10601254 BIRRELL MR
10602673 BLACK R
10602356 BLACKBURN R
10601255 BLUMER A
10602563 BLUNDELL J
10601145 BOLLINGTON S
10601674 BOOCOCK W
10603346 BOOTH C
10601925 BOWEN AE
10603347 BOWMAN G
10603549 BOWYER JH
10601676 BOYD T
10602839 BRANT WG
10600460 BRAZIER GE
10601799 BREARLEY R
10601680 BROOKE D
10601158 COLLIER G
10600362 COOPER NM
10601811 COX TH
10601938 CRAGGS AE
10601695 CROFTS H
10602537 DAVIES R
10606930 DEAS PF
10601700 DICKINSON K
10603402 DRAKE RO
10603115 DRUMMOND AY
10601826 ELLIS S
10600906 EVANS E
10603404 EVERITT G
10600858 FAIRBROTHER FV
10601947 FORD RS
10601314 FOWLER J
10600860 FOWLES B
10603130 GEDDES RCI
10601707 GELDER LD
10602630 GIBB AJ
10603047 GREEN GW
10601585 GRIFFITHS WJ
10600512 GURR GH
10600099 GUTTERIDGE LE
10602643 HAMILTON J
10602643 HAMILTON J
10602645 HARRIS R
10601962 HENRY J
10603531 HERRING AJ
10602543 HETHERINGTON R
10602514 HEYWORTH F
10600801 HILL JL
10603321 HINDLE JC
10601963 HIRD A
10603477 HORWOOD WJ
10603478 HUDSPETH R
10601495 HUNT CF
10602651 HUNTER DR
10603144 HUNTER A
10603145 HUNTER W
10601015 INSTALL HW
10601337 JACKSON RR
10600802 JONES A
10602655 KEITH DG
10600673 KELLY L
10601341 KEMP H
10602607 KEMP RG
10602718 KERR AG
10602719 KINCAID G
10603157 KINGHORN DMR
10603461 KIRCHER F
10602207 LAPISH JC
10603164 LAURIE AK
10602520 LAVIS WJ
10600535 LEE AG
10602726 LEIPER A
10601348 LIDDLE W
10602368 LOMAS Frank
10602402 LONGSON J
10602729 LYALL D
10602522 MACAULAY A
10600770 MACGIBBON D
10603057 MACHIN WA
10602308 MARTIN S
10603483 MASON CR
10601375 MCCLELLAND JSTP
10602222 MORTIMER N
10603212 NESBIT J
10600553 NEWMAN RH
10600954 NORTH J
10602227 O'DONNELL RH
10601870 O'HARA FW
10601515 OAKLEY T
10603368 OLDFIELD J
10600409 OLDHAM G
10602284 OLLERENSHAW A
10602550 ORMEROD F
10603328 OWENS T
10602780 PATERSON I
10603210 PATERSON EAB
10601202 PATRICK AW
10601133 PAYNE GR
10601621 POWELL AH
10601533 READMAN F
10601084 REID JS
10602378 REID G
10600815 RILEY E
10601888 RIMMINGTON A
10602790 RITCHIE AW
10602793 ROBERTSON G
10601624 ROSSER T
10600678 SCOTT TG
10601211 SHAW JJ
10601764 SIMPSON George Robert Wilfred
10600567 SINCLAIR GWJ
10603503 SINGLETON WJ
10603234 SKLAIR S
10600569 SLEET AR
10600233 SMITH FS
10602243 SMITH S
10602584 SMITH A
10602807 SMITH R
10602245 STEELE G
10601773 SUGDEN L
10600902 WALLS IG
10601643 WARD ND
10603437 WARD JP
10601090 WHITE JC
10601446 WHITLING GW
10600145 WHITMORE S

 

Out of that list, these are the ones that I have little snippets on information on.

10602384 BEVAN RE 2 x DM 1 WOUNDED 05/10/1944 NW'EUROPE 53rd Rgt, RAC
10601811 COX TH METH 1 x DM 3 WOUNDED 18/08/1944 NW'EUROPE 53rd Regiment, RAC
10600906 EVANS E 1 x DM 1J WOUNDED 07/08/1944 NW'EUROPE 3rd Regiment Reconnaissance Corps
10601585 GRIFFITHS WJ CE 1 x DM 1J WOUNDED 07/08/1944 NW'EUROPE 43rd Regiment, RAC Lance Sergeant
10602645 HARRIS R PRES 1 x DM 5N WOUNDED 12/09/1944 ITALY 46th Regiment, Recce, RAC
10603478 HUDSPETH R CE 1 x DM WOUNDED 22/11/1944 W'EUROPE 3rd Regiment Recce
10602718 KERR AG 1 x DM 2 WOUNDED 25/07/1944 NW'EUROPE 3RD REG, RECONNAISANCE CORPS, RAC
10602368 LOMAS Frank CE 1 x DM 2 BEM 15/09/1944 RAC Awarded for Brave Conduct
10602308 MARTIN S 1 x DM 2 WOUNDED 25/09/1944 NW'EUROPE 49TH REG, RECCONAISSANCE, RAC
10602222 MORTIMER N CE 2 x DM 1 WOUNDED 24/09/1943 ITALY 56th Regiment, Reconnaissance Corps Trooper,
10600553 NEWMAN RH CE 1 x DM 6N POW 04/03/1943 N'AFRICA 46 Regiment Reconnaissance Corps Stalag 11a, Altengrabow POW No.142446
10600678 SCOTT TG 1 x DM 1J POW 28/09/1944 ITALY 46 Regiment, Reconnaissance Corps Stalag 344, Lamsdorf, Poland : POW No. 139127
10601764 SIMPSON George Robert Wilfred 1 x DM 1 MM 27/01/1944 ITALY Recce Corps Trooper George Robert Wilfred Gazaette Date 15/06/1944, https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36563/supplement/2853-**changed date to the date of action per his MM citation 27/01/1944

 

Thank you Dan

 

I'm excited to see what you come back with

 

Out of interest would you be the same Dan Mackay who sold me a deactivated no4 about 10 years ago and never delivered it?

 

Wow, blast from my far and distant miserable past. Not that you're miserable, a time I wished to put behind me, too much drink and an ex from hell. PM me your address, I will send you a cheque. Wasn't I supposed to meet you somewhere like a militaria show then you cancelled, can't really remember much about what after that? Let me wright a wrong.

My sincerest apologies, I was a complete f*cked up waste of space back then, Dan

 

Please feel free....

 

They would do ... From June(ish) 1950, all numbers changed to 8 digit numbers beginning with 22.. and were numbered chronologically (from 22000000) from then on*. The highest 8 digit number that falls within this sequence (23875012) on your website listing was issued in circa 1962. With this in mind, why would some 1950's and 1960's issued numbers be on discs be for the invasion of Japan in 1945???

*already issued (pre-1950) numbers were retained with some late WW2 numbers being encountered well into the 1960's.

Also... please answer me the one question that has been bugging me since I first ever came across the reports of these discs... why are they all 1960 pattern discs (1950's- 1990's in that format) if they were intended for WW2? (And, yes I'm aware of the Lethbridge report and the recommendations... I've come across many such reports going as far back as 1915 (and a very similar recommendation for a return to metal discs for use in the Middle East in 1918)... recommendations are just that though... recommendations, not AO's. No changes necessarily followed and pattern changes could take years.)...I'm sorry, but I just can't buy the story of them being for WW2 - there's so much that appears 'wrong' for this to be the case.

Dave

 

Forget what you know about dog-tags being postwar, or the invasion of Japan, these are the same dog-tags. The introduction of metal dog-tags as standard doesn't start in the post WW2 period, for Korea etc, but would have been issued for Japan invasions end of WW2. The same tag was just continued to be used. The WW2 tags and post war 22 tags all being made, stored at the same place and all dumped together.

 

if they are not for WW2, please explain all the dog-tags that have WW2 soldiers details on, some of which enlisted as early as 1936? Explain all the POWs, Medal winners, Missing reports, wounded reports... if you can give me an alternative plausible explanation, I will gladly look into it

Dan