15th Scottish Division in Goch?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Chris C, Dec 30, 2021.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi all,

    I am writing about the capture of Goch and am puzzled by the description of 20th February in the 15th Division history. I haven't been able to find a thread here about this (stolpi hasn't written about it? I think I must just be searching incorrectly) so I thought I'd post.

    I know the chronology goes something like this:
    - 43rd division cleared crossings over the outer anti-tank ditch (end of the 17th of Feb, I think)
    - 18 February: the 44th Brigade CO, Brigadier Cumming-Bruce, tried to put in a quick 'coup de main' attack because everything seemed so quiet. This went in at 13:15, but it didn't work, so they went ahead with their artillery bombardment and full scale attack at 15:00 with a slight modification due to the men already moved up. By the end of the day "the Royal Scots well across on the right-hand axis and the KOSB established in two small bridgeheads on the left" - across the inner anti-tank ditch, AFAIK
    - 19 February: "by 6pm the 44th Brigade generally had cleared Goch down to the Niers". Also 227th Brigade starts attacking east - Buchholt/Schloss Calbeck.
    - 20 February: "in Goch north of the Niers the enemy's fire was still fierce and the 44th Brigade still had some snipers to deal with" "the 153rd Brigade was still meeting stubborn resistance in the southern quarter of Goch"

    Which, you know, doesn't say a lot. But meantime in the 102nd Anti-Tank War diary I have "288 Battery SP Troop takes part in indirect shoot and fires 350 rounds HE in support of 44th Brigade."

    Had 44th Brigade in fact moved out of Goch on that day? I'm mystified.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
  2. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

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  3. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Chris - I must admit that I ignored that part of the operations a bit.

    Frontline at the close of Feb 17th: VERITABLE 1945: 15th Scottish & 43rd Wessex Divisions in the Reichswald battle

    You will find a detailed treatment of the attack on Goch by 15th Scottish in the BAOR study (30 Corps Veritable). The operations against Schloss Kalbeck and bridgehead across the Goch - Uedem railway line is treated in Martin's History15th Scottish Division. See also Captain Roel's thread: The attack on Schloss Kalbeck
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  4. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Thank you, david and stolpi. I had forgotten about that study. I'll take a look.
     
  5. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    stolpi, the study I have is by 21 Army Group and only has this summary. Is there something else?

    Screen Shot 2021-12-30 at 11.49.10 AM.png
    and
    Screen Shot 2021-12-30 at 11.48.59 AM.png
     
  6. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Chris - Both documents I referred to are on the way per We Transfer
     
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  7. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Thank you very much stolpi, though, I am not seeing the answers I seek. The BAOR description ends just before the date I am interested in. This is the section from Martin's book which I find lacking. Of course it is possible that the date of the barrage is incorrect. I think I would need the divisional or brigade war diary to answer my question. :(

    068 - Copy.JPG

    100_4932.JPG
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

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  9. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    The attack through the woods around Kalbeck Castle (Schloss Kalbeck) and across the railway line by15th Scottish is described here: The attack on Schloss Kalbeck

    44th Bde is involved in these on the 23rd of Feb. The 6th KOSBs previously are attached to the 227 Bde.

    These battles in the shadow of Goch were a preliminary to 1st Canadian Army's renewed offensive at the end of Feb (Blockbuster - 2nd Cdn Corps & Veritable II - British 30 Corps). 15 Scottish and 51 HD were pulled out at that point. Both got time to rest and reorganize and start preparations for the Rhine Crossing due for March 45.

    Note that Goch is completely secured on Feb 21st by the 51st HD. From that point on 44 Bde (15 Scottish Div), on the right bank of the Niers, was pinched out of the battle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  10. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Thank you, Owen. Before I came to the forum right now, I'd had the thought to look for the war diaries and just had a look at 44th Brigade. I must remember that 15th and 51st both have good websites with the war diaries. If only the same was true for all divisions!

    So it has to be the anti-tank war diary which is wrong about the date of that barrage. Arggggh. Maybe the second barrage belonged to the previous day when they were still clearing the town. I think that is the only thing that makes sense
     
  11. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    153 Bde 21 Feb plan of attack (1).jpg

    Chris - Note that Goch on Feb 20 still was not completely secured by the 51st HD. The southeastern part of the town was in enemy hands until next day (Feb 21st) after the 153 Bde cleared a way around the south of the town (5 BW & 7 BW). Vossheide, the eastern suburb of Goch, for example, was seized by the 7th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders only in the afternoon of Feb 21st. See: VERITABLE 1945: 51st Highland Division Reichswald Forest

    Since Feb 19th, the 44 Bde was watching the battle from the across the Niers. The indirect shoot by 288 btty for the 20th therefore is plausible, as long as it was aimed at the enemy held sector south of the river.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2022
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  12. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi stolpi,

    I agree, that's possible, but given the WD says the barrage was in support of 44 Brigade, it seems more plausible that it was listed after the fact as having happened on the wrong day, than in support of the wrong brigade.

    And thank you very much for your maps, which really helped me describe the fighting of 5 BW there.
     
  13. Wapen

    Wapen Well-Known Member



    I did a show and tell on WW2TV based on my Goch chapter.
    Stolpi gets a biggup but at least six WW2Talkers are in my acknowledgements so far.
    Please pick holes where I get things wrong.
    Might be over for another tour of the area in March.
    :cheers:
     
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  14. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Ooooh was that you? Now I really will watch it!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  15. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    That was brilliant - thank you so much for discussing the results of your research on the channel. I think it's really interesting how a fresh look at the battle shows how previous conclusions were faulty.

    I really did not understand where the German armour which attacked 5BW during the night of 20-21 Feb were coming from. Now I do!

    Unfortunately I now have to do some more work on my ~2 pages on Goch to correct it.
     
  16. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Hi Wapen - Congratulations on your presentation, well done.

    Would really like to show you around at Goch next March and start picking holes ;)

    ... mind the wide open flank on HD's right during the entire operation Veritable. The Highlanders in their advance through the Recihswald toward Goch had to form their own defensive flank. They were continually fighting with one arm (the right one) tied to their back. In the attack on Goch this impeded a swift isolation of the town center. HD had to make front inwards toward the town (5/7 G & (later) 7 BW) and outward to the south (Thomashof (1 G) & Slavanien (5 BW)), not unlike Ceasar at Alesia in 52 B.C. ... the latter a battlefield I hope to visit this summer.

    Roman MG 52 BC.jpg
    MG 52 BC ... and "pardon my French"
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2022
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  17. Wapen

    Wapen Well-Known Member

    Cheers Stolpi,
    Hope you liked the way I did it with 1940s comms problems. Will email about March trip when I get the nod.
     
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  18. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi Stolpi, I don't suppose you remember what the source of your map here was? (I'm working with a friend to make some maps.)

    Cheers,
    Chris
     

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