1940 staff vehicle - A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

(Not sure if this is the correct place for this . . .)


Here’s one for the softskin types:
The records of the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards begin with a description of the vehicles taken to France in 1939/1940 and there is the statement that “all of the fighting element was tracked except for the C.O.’s Humber Utility car.”


I looked into the options for what vehicle this might have been and I found that Humber did not produce a light utility like the Austin, Morris, Standard and Hilman versions. Humber did produce a 4x4 heavy utility known as “The Box”, but many sources say that this was not made until 1941 – so Lt Col Misa can not have used one . . . . or could he?


I also discovered this restored Humber Heavy Utility of 1940 vintage (photo below), a year before it was supposed to have been produced and I then found a few other websites saying that the Heavy Utility was produced from 1940 . . . the plot thickens.


Humber also made a Snipe and Super Snipe Utility which apparently looked much like the 4x4 Heavy Utility but without the 4x4 feature.
What do you think – was Misa using a “Box” or a Snipe Utility?

 

They deployed to France in Sept 39 if thats any help.

 

I strongly suspect that this is a Snipe Estate. These were classed as Heavy Utility and used by COs. The 4 X 4 may have been produced in 1940 but not I think in time to go to France.

However Humber did make a 8cwt truck based on the Snipe and available as PU and FFW.

Mike

 

I strongly suspect that this is a Snipe Estate. These were classed as Heavy Utility and used by COs. The 4 X 4 may have been produced in 1940 but not I think in time to go to France.

However Humber did make a 8cwt truck based on the Snipe and available as PU and FFW.

Mike

I agree with Mike. It has to be the Car 4x2 Heavy Utility (Humber Snipe). They can be seen in a significant number of photographs of the BEF in 1939/40. In fact it is one of the 'typical' BEF vehicles that rather fades from the scene after Dunkirk. I think they are splendid looking vehicles. Here is one from a Pathe news still.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=48488&stc=1&d=1301753406

By contrast, and while this is not conclusive evidence, I have never seen a Humber FWD Heavy Utility in a picture of the BEF.

Andrew

 

Thanks everyone for the details.

I had read somewhere on this forum that there were no British estate cars in France until 2nd BEF (not sure which thread), but I guess it depends how you classify it - the Snipe looks like an estate car to me. It is still an imposing-looking vehicle.

Just out of interest, was the Humber Heavy Utility the earliest 4x4 softskin produced in Britain?

 

That's the one. It was replaced by two Ford versions, the British WOA series heavy utility which did not have the woodwork, and the Canadian Ford which did.

The Humbers were all nice looking vehicles. I never got round to making a model of the utility when I ran Trux Models but Peter Bailey of Bull Models made one based on my Snipe saloon. (Oops. Hope that is not advertising.)

Mike

 

Thanks everyone for the details.

I had read somewhere on this forum that there were no British estate cars in France until 2nd BEF (not sure which thread), but I guess it depends how you classify it - the Snipe looks like an estate car to me. It is still an imposing-looking vehicle.

Just out of interest, was the Humber Heavy Utility the earliest 4x4 softskin produced in Britain?

No way! The AEC Matador was first built by Hardy well before the war. The Thornycroft Hathi 4x4 was built in 1924. 4x4 Quads from Guy and Morris were all common in the BEF.

Chris

 

Chris - I should have said 4x4 car - I knew about the matadors, quads and other artillery tractors from other threads, but a 4wd car seems to have been a complete novelty in Britain.

Thanks again to everyone.

Dave

 

Agree all the above , their's many pictures of BEF Humber 4x2s utilities,there must be some on this forum but never seen the 4x4 with BEF.(But I'd never seen a Matador with them till recently either) Both nice quality cars.
The 4x4 Humber box was the only British made 4x4 'car' I believe (replacement the Range Rover? ) and was popular with officers until the 1960s

 

This is the real mystery - the Morris Commercial CD 6x4. How many of these went to France? Is that where this one was photographed? And are those more geometric artillery markings on the back?

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=48572&stc=1&d=1301936382


Andrew

 

Going back to this for a moment...

The records of the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards begin with a description of the vehicles taken to France in 1939/1940 and there is the statement that “all of the fighting element was tracked except for the C.O.’s Humber Utility car.”

OP, do we actually know that this wasn't an impressed Humber civvie type?

 

Humber cars used by the german army. Original photos from my collection/book. The US used pre war and war time Humbers.

 

Going back to this for a moment...



OP, do we actually know that this wasn't an impressed Humber civvie type?

You are right of course, it could have been an impressed civilian type. Until documentary evidence or a photograph are found we have just made a guess. For my part the guess is based on the word 'utility' and the photographic evidence that there were a lot of military Humber Snipe Utility vehicles with the BEF in 1939. Do you know if there were any civilian Humber utility vehicles with the BEF?

Andrew

 

You are right of course, it could have been an impressed civilian type. Until documentary evidence or a photograph are found we have just made a guess. For my part the guess is based on the word 'utility' and the photographic evidence that there were a lot of military Humber Snipe Utility vehicles with the BEF in 1939. Do you know if there were any civilian Humber utility vehicles with the BEF?

Andrew

There is another possibility. Philson's BEF book (Vol 1 P 51) lists the vehicles of a divisional cavalry unit's regimental headquarters establishment as 1 x 8cwt truck GS, 4 x light tanks and 2 x armoured scout carriers. The 8cwt truck GS could be the CO's vehicle that is being referred to in Dave's quote. While most of the BEF's 8cwts were Morris Commercial PUs there were some other types including a Humber Snipe with the 8cwt bodywork (see picture). Perhaps this was the 'utility' mentioned?

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=48679&stc=1&d=1302333760

Andrew

 

Andrew is correct. I mentioned the possibility (half heartedly) in a previous post. Now I have checked with my own 12 page article on these units and find:

The War Establishment for a Divisional Cavalry Regiment does not include a car or heavy utility. The only wheeled vehicle at Tactical Headquarters is a 8cwt PU. The COs assigned place is in a light tank but the PU would probably be used as an office. It did not carry wireless.

I also have a note that the lack of liaison vehicles was recognised and corrected in early 1940. These seem to have been motorcycle combinations. Not dignified enough for the CO.

Mike

 

In my research into the Humber Snipe Utility 4x2 and Humber 'Box' Heavy Utility 4x4 it occurred to me that only the 4x4 should be called 'heavy' and the 4x2 was plain 'utility'. But I think because they look similar people sometimes got the two mixed up, and I've seen the 4x2 referred to as "heavy".

Can anyone confirm that really only Humber Box 4x4 should be called 'heavy'?

In regard to the Morris-Commercial CD and CDF 6x4, my impression is that a lot, possibly most of these were lost in France; so many that they became rare - in the British army - after Dunkirk.

Does anyone know the dimensions of the CD or CDF 6x4, and what speed it could travel?

Thanks,
Cross

 

Bart H. Vanderveen was usually pretty well informed on these things and he lists both types as 'Heavy Utility'.

Car 4x2 Heavy Utility (Humber Snipe)

Car 4x4 Heavy Utility (Humber F.W.D.)

The chassis were classed as 8cwt and the distinction was with the 5cwt Light Utilities.

Although the Humber 8cwt was based on the Snipe as well, it would seem strange to describe it as a car rather than an 8cwt truck.

From memory, the various adjutants wrtiting war diaries tended to refer to the Snipe utilities as 'Shooting Brakes' which was probably the current non-military terminology.

 

In regard to the Morris-Commercial CD and CDF 6x4, my impression is that a lot, possibly most of these were lost in France; so many that they became rare - in the British army - after Dunkirk.

Does anyone know the dimensions of the CD or CDF 6x4, and what speed it could travel?

Thanks,
Cross

Hi Cross

You may find it useful to acquire one of Bart Vanderveen's books, such as The Observer's Fighting Vehicles Directory which has a lot of this stuff in it. For example:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=48722&stc=1&d=1302446122

I think the Command Car had the same chassis and certainly the same wheels. I'm not sure of the speed.

Andrew

 

Thanks guys. It is difficult to find info about the Morris CD and CDF on the internet. I will keep searching for additional info.

Simon